Level 20 benifits for dedication.

[Mallore]

Just shooting out an idea.

I would love to see reason why to stick with a core class.

Right now we promote multi classing. I fact your pretty underpowered in some cases if your not dancing four classes. We reward players for multi classing. If you would lose out on a benefit for staying dedicated that's okay we will offer you a feat to fix that. This we get wizards with 3 levels in something else being just as powerful at casting as a pure wizard.


Why do we not have cool bonus for going all the way in dedication ?

Even new classes we offer have benefits all the way up to 30 but our core classes do not. And no the occasional bonus feet every three levels for some classes is not the same nor useful as a core ability.

How about a level 20 special for dedicating ?

Thoughts.

[Steve]

But isn't it the case that the majority of Base Classes get extra Feats in Epic Levels, if they single Class-it-up?

[Mallore]

That is true and is mentioned above.

Though rarely does anyone actually hit the full 20 in the core class even for the benefit you mentioned as 20 is often an empty level in the original core. Usually people stop at about 16 taking those last 6 in the epic levels for that bonus feet like you said.

My proposal is for dedication to the full 20.

Some of our new core classes give benefits for 20. And give bonus feats too sometimes

Both ninja and FS give bonus for level 20. Among other newer toys.

[Valefort]

Going 20 or more is in fact the norm Mallore.

Barbarian => gets benefits and makes sense to go to 20
Bard => 20+ is a must
Cleric => 20+ is the go-to build altough hierophant is now an interesting option
Druid => 20+ mandatory
Favored Soul => 20+ mandatory
Fighter => Rarely goes over 20 but the benefits are there
Man-at-Arms => gets benefits after 20 because its abilities are tied to class level
Monk => many monk builds are heavy on monk, gets big beneifts after 20
Paladin => 20+ almost mandatory except if you go for a paladin dip
Phantom => gets benefits
Ranger => ranger 21 is where it's at and going 26+ is often the best option
Rogue => Past 19 there are no real benefits
Sorcerer => going over 6 levels is generally a bad idea
Spirit Shaman => Uhm, not too sure there
Swashbuckler => No one would go more than 19 levels unless forced
Warlock => Pure is perfectly good
Wizard => Pure is also perfectly good though a dip, in anything, is generally more powerful

The anomalies if we only look at things this way are :

Rogue
Sorcerer
Swashbuckler

[Mallore]

Well.


As the person that plays a rogue I guess that's the annomly I see. Also a feat every three levels is far under the power of our new non traditional core classes. Two blank levels constantly in your progression is strange and under power

When you slap on a rogue style prestige class such as shadow dancer you weaken as half your talents over lap and you get no ability. Such as gaining evasion again (when this happens with a ranger you get an improvement instead). Or improved evasion again or uncanny dodge again and if I had m my game open I think there was another ability over lap.

So in those levels they are blank too.


You also hit upon one my notes. The idea that a pure wizard is not special but weaker then anything that dips isn't really cool in my opinion. There should be a benifit to pure wizard.


But I suppose, three classes you listed could benefit with some reason to go 20.

[Valefort]

Almost pure wizard (26 levels) is better than most wizard builds actually, it is special and powerful (sky high DCs).

As for rogue, the bonus feats at 10 13 16 and 19 are powerful (crippling strike, improved evasion) and open for epic precision and the particularly powerful epic dodge. The two new base classes that are Man-At-Arms and Phantom don't compare at all power wise, they're quite inferior. I assure you rogue 19 is by no means weak ! I'll also mention that you need 8d6 rogue sneak attacks to open up Improved sneak attack feats.

The primary reason shadowdancer is often taken by rogue builds is HiPS because as you say it's not giving much to rogue builds otherwise. It's ... not a rogue prestige class in fact but that's the only alternative to assassin in order to get the holy grail that is HiPS.

Either way .. benefits for Rogue to go more than 19 levels ... I don't know, the bonus feats from going pure are nothing to sneeze at already. Try a Rogue 27/ shadowdancer 3 and you'll see how good it is.

[Theodore01]

I would love to see reason why to stick with a core class.

I would love to see that.
Core Classes getting a boost in the (high) epic levels.
Lv. 28- 30 should grant the best boost.
This could happen either in special feats or perhaps in stats/saves increase.

Barbarian => gets benefits and makes sense to go to 20, but then its lacking.
Example:
26 Epic Will
28 Epic Rage
29 Improved Whirlwind Attack
30 Overwhelming Critical

Example: Rogue:
14 Hide in the Shadows,
20 Blinding Strike
21 Fast Movement
22 Special Ability, Blinding Speed
26 Special Ability
28 Self-Concealment 1
29 Epic Resilience ,
30 Self-Concealment 2, Frantic Reactions

[marine436]

I have to agree with this post.

getting to level 20,25,30 per class being a 'pure' class should have a Huge benefit.

If the DMS\Designers\Players would not mind, I would like to purpose a system of benfits for each base class and present it, it could then be talked about\refined with the designers or with.

Before I proceeded though, Id have to know the scope.

Do we want a benefit at 20, 20 +25 or 20+30 ? or just 30.

the benefits of being a pure and 30, should be considerable!

Please let know, id very much like to help and do this project

[metaquad4]

Something I cooked up, that I thought I would toss into the idea pool:
(They are not all dedication rewards, though, most of them are. Some of them are also class feature ideas which translate into dedication rewards)

Hidden: show

Sorcerer:
Level 20: Spellcasting Prodigy
Level 25: Spell-Like Ability (Drawn from Archmage's Pool)x2
Level 30: Blood Magic (General)
As per one of Kaedrin's changes (modified idea):
--At a natural caster level of 21 (without taking into account practiced spell caster), sorcerers get another level 1 spell to pick. At CL 22, they get another level 2 spell. This continues until CL 30, at which they get 1 more spell from each level.
--Additionally, sorcerers also get 1 more casting of level 1 spells at natural CL 21. At CL 22, they get 1 more casting of level 2 spells. This continues until 30 at, at which point they get 1 more casting of each level of spell.
--The end total of these two points is 2 additional picks of each circle of spell, and 2 addition casts of of each circle of spell by 30.

Swashbuckler:
Level 20: +1 AB/Damage/AC when using finessable weapons
Level 25: +3 AB/Damage/AC when using finessable weapons, Evasion
Level 30: +5 AB/Damage/AC when using finessable weapons, Improved Evasion

Barbarian:
Level 20: +1 STR, +1 CON, +1/- DR, +1 AC/AB while raging
Level 25: +2 STR, +2 CON, +2/- DR, +2 AC/AB while raging, Spell Resistance (11+Barbarian Level) while raging.
Level 30: +4 STR, +4 CON, +3/- DR, +4 AC/AB while raging, Supreme Cleave while raging.
--Add CON to damage while raging.

Rogue:
Level 25: +3d6 Sneak Attack
Level 30: Remove Slow when Sneaking, Fast Movement, +6d6 Sneak Attack

Cleric:
Level 25: Extra Domain Pick
Level 30: Extra Domain Pick

Favored Soul:
Level 30: Epic Weapon Focus (Deity Weapon), Epic Weapon Specialization (Deity Weapon)

Fighter:
Level 20: Evasion, +1 AC
Level 25: +3 AC
Level 30: Improved Evasion, +5 AC
--The ability to take Great STR, Great CON, and Great DEX as fighter bonus feats from level 16 onward.

Monk:
Level 25: Improved Uncanny Dodge, Weapon Mastery (Unarmed/Blunt/Slashing/Piercing)
Level 30: Epic Dodge, Epic Weapon Focus (Unarmed/Quarterstaff/Kama/Dagger/Handaxe), Epic Weapon Specialization (Unarmed/Quarterstaff/Kama/Dagger/Handaxe)
Note: I believe those are all monk/flurry weapons. If they are not, or if I am missing one, consider it omitted or added respectively.

Paladin:
Level 25: Smite Infidel, Extra Smiting
Level 30: Planar Turning, Extra Turning, Improved Turning

Ranger:
--An additional favored enemy pick at every even epic level (22, 24, 26, 28, 30).
--A free "improved favored enemy" or "favored power attack" feat at every odd epic level (21, 23, 25, 27, 29).

Spirit Shaman:
Level 25: Epic Spell Penetration, Epic Spell Focus (in a single chosen school)
Level 30: Lay on Hands, Epic Spell Focus (in a single chosen school)
--Telthor Companion given for free at level 3, with full progression (As per a druid, rather than 3-HD).
--Telthor Companion upgrades from a spirit wolf to a spirit bear at level 20, and from a spirit bear to a spirit wyvern at level 30.

[Atlas]

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