A look at the Search Skill.

[metaquad4]

Actually its not. The DC for stealth/detection is Spot/listen+20 vs Hide/ms+d20. The spotter gets an auto 20 on the roll with a detection done twice every six seconds. so this is horribly unbalanced and unfair. Yes with both groups getting gear to match, with the exception that almost all spot gear comes with AC while only half of the Sneak Gear comes with ac.

While the "defender" in this case of wards is considered easly beat, it cane only be matched by one class with sufficient skill investment, (not an easy thing at all) Though this is one of the few cases where More Power, doesn't mean better.

I am utterly against 20+caster level for the reason its set to spell level, more power isnt better, plus 20+caster 30/32 would mean 50/52 skill dc on the rogues part, which would mean at least 30 ranks in the search skill is majorly unfair, as the class has to reserve skill points for Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Lores, for roleplay, Slight of Hand, Traps, Disarm, locks, as functions, and then UMD, Tumble and others for serviceability, this is unbalanced.

Caster level requires no additional investment that was not already being put in. These wards are not harder to detect because of more power. It should be the inverse, more power the easier it is. Sometimes things just roll that way.

If some feel its to easy to find their alarm, well cast it at a higher level spell slot. So an alarm cast at level 9 spell slot would be 32 dc? some where about. maybe 33 or 34. that seams fair.

also note there is not a lot of +4 search skill on the server, even less +4 search +4ms//hide and near to none with +4 ac +4search +4hide/ms. So the rogue is already punished on this server and forced to carry more suits of gear then any other toon, and further punished by being forced to sacrifice in areas of skill that no other class in the game has to.

Sorry no, arguably its still busted, see the above on how Stealth actually works. Not till sneaks are given an auto 20 roll on non hostiles will it be balanced. I do not understand why Stealth characters are the only class where we expect to fail half the time to 90% of the time. Could you imagine an caster class miss casting half the time? there would be a revolt!

So why do we expect stealth toons (rogues and rangers) to have barely NO success going against toons of equal level at the foundation of the class? This is what rogues do. Sneak. Casters Cast, fighters Fight. Only one class on this server is not allowed to succeed regularly against toons of equal level of any class.

Which sneak have you played? I've found my sneak very successful. Granted, I do use all the gear I have available to me (The Hell merchant gear, and things from the BG rogue merchant). But, I have managed to sneak past epic (level 28-30) level druids without them detecting me (in search mode, for around 1-2 minutes of staying around me).

Where is this information about an auto 20 coming from? I've never encountered that for any skill rolls. Nore should there be any on skill rolls. Any sneak who has stood in an area with people, stealthed, for a few minutes can attest to that (again. Stood next to druids for several minutes. Have spied on none-detectors for lengthy RP sessions.). It wouldn't be possible if there was an auto-20 system, but, it is possible. How can that be, if there is an auto-20?

In any event, any none-dedicated spotter won't ever be able to spot you with the proper gear. And a dedicated spotter will stand a chance, but so will you. Its been pretty equalized I'd say, after playing a sneaker.

The new gear is also +4 AC, with +4 Hide/MS. So, the argument of having to carry around multiple sets of gear isn't really applicable with the new sets. I forget if the merchant has AC+detection gear, but I know it doesn't have equivalent detection gear. Also, where does one find all the spot gear with AC (the loot table has the same potential for both detection and sneaking gear)? Which merchant does one buy it from?

Spot and Hide gear have the same AC associated with them, most dedicated spot gear is found in the seven suns (and some in the new merchant as well).

As well, you don't have to reserve skill points for diplomacy, intimidate, lore(s), or sleight of hand. Those are all luxury skills. Disable Device and Open lock are also luxuries, though, they are more useful to take (due to the xp they net). And rogues usually can take them, with the amount of skill points most get. UMD, Bluff, Tumble, Hide, Move Silent, Spot and/or Listen, and Escape Artist are the only ones I'd say a rogue really "has" to take as far as viability goes. That is 7 skills to maintain, then you can use your remaining 1+INT skill points for whatever luxuries you need/desire.

How, in any RPG, have you ever gotten the idea that more power isn't better? More sneak dice are better, more in a stat is better, more CL is better. All are different forms of power. All increasing is better. This is true of any RPG I've ever played. Never played one where leveling up and increasing power isn't a bad thing.

[Tantive]

From what I can find,

The spells explosive runes, fire trap, glyph of warding, symbol, and teleportation circle create magic traps that a rogue can find by making a successful Search check and then can attempt to disarm by using Disable Device. Identifying the location of a snare spell has a DC of 23. Spike growth and spike stones create magic traps that can be found using Search, but against which Disable Device checks do not succeed. See the individual spell descriptions for details.

They are mostly physical inscriptions or setting of items. I don't see alarm in the list. But it is detectable by use of Detect Magic, or should be.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

actually its not. the DC for stealth/detection is Spot/listen+20 vs Hide/ms+d20. the spotter gets an auto 20 on the roll with a detection done twice every six seconds.

This auto 20 claim is baseless.

Caster level requires no additional investment that was not already being put in. These wards are not harder to detect because of more power. It should be the inverse, more power the easier it is. Sometimes things just roll that way.

The manner behind the CL isn't just in power, but the arcanist's ability with that particular spell's properties. Alarm's design in being not detected is one of those, why would the arcanist cast it in a way as to defeat the purpose of the spell?

[Mallore]

From what I can find,

The spells explosive runes, fire trap, glyph of warding, symbol, and teleportation circle create magic traps that a rogue can find by making a successful Search check and then can attempt to disarm by using Disable Device. Identifying the location of a snare spell has a DC of 23. Spike growth and spike stones create magic traps that can be found using Search, but against which Disable Device checks do not succeed. See the individual spell descriptions for details.

They are mostly physical inscriptions or setting of items. I don't see alarm in the list. But it is detectable by use of Detect Magic, or should be.

((Page 81 of the 3.5 PHP )) If you go talks about Abj magic. Alarm is an Abj spell.

[Mallore]

actually its not. the DC for stealth/detection is Spot/listen+20 vs Hide/ms+d20. the spotter gets an auto 20 on the roll with a detection done twice every six seconds.

This auto 20 claim is baseless.

Caster level requires no additional investment that was not already being put in. These wards are not harder to detect because of more power. It should be the inverse, more power the easier it is. Sometimes things just roll that way.

The manner behind the CL isn't just in power, but the arcanist's ability with that particular spell's properties. Alarm's design in being not detected is one of those, why would the arcanist cast it in a way as to defeat the purpose of the spell?

its not baseless. this is exactly as it was told to me in numerous threads regarding how stealth works here. A none Hostile creature gets 20 on all Spot/listen checks.

Further alarms design is not about being detected but focused on alerting the caster. In no way is the caster casting the spell so it can be defeated easily, it is a level 2 spell for crying out loud. Sometimes there are just tricks to things.

Anyways BMD had a very fine proposal.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

Part of the reasoning behind wards, in addition, relative to Guild Halls is the constant "god moding" going on. While I understand your qualm to the Alarm spell, GHs in particular doesn't invite someone to sneak about undetected from PCs and NPCs alike. DM intervention is a requirement.

[Tantive]

((Page 81 of the 3.5 PHP )) If you go talks about Abj magic. Alarm is an Abj spell.

I'm looking at the playerhandbook page, is also speaks of explosive runes, fire trap, glyph of warding, symbol, and teleportation circle which are classified and function as traps. Usually to harm or set magic upon someone entering the trap. Teleportation circle is somewhat different but can function in the same way. Usually it is marked somewhere.

[metaquad4]

"The spells explosive runes, fire trap, glyph of warding, symbol, and teleportation circle create magic traps that a rogue can find by making a successful Search check and then can attempt to disarm by using Disable Device. Identifying the location of a snare spell has a DC of 23. Spike growth and spike stones create magic traps that can be found using Search, but against which Disable Device checks do not succeed. See the individual spell descriptions for details.

Active abjuration spells within 10 feet of each other for 24 hours or more create barely visible energy fluctuations. These fluctuations give you a +4 bonus on Search checks to locate such abjuration spells."

Alarm it is not a trap (it can be a trigger for a trap, but it in and of itself is not one). Unlike other trap spells (such as the examples presented), it does not have a note relating to its interaction with search.

"Active abjuration spells within 10 feet of each other for 24 hours or more create barely visible energy fluctuations. These fluctuations give you a +4 bonus on Search checks to locate such abjuration spells."

"If one abjuration spell is active within 10 feet of another for 24 hours or more, the magical fields interfere with each other and create barely visible energy fluctuations. The DC to find such spells with the Search skill drops by 4." (From Abjuration on page 172 of the 3.5 PHB)

It is an abjuration spell, however. So, if it were within 10 feet of a detectable abjuration spell, the DC to detect the spell that is marked as searchable would decrease by 4. Explosive runes, fire trap, and glyph of warding are three spells given as an example, as they call contain a note in their descriptions that they are search-able.

tldr: For a spell to be able to be found by search, it will contain a little note in its PnP description detailing that it can be found by search. All of the spells that can be found via search do contain this note, and Alarm does not. Thus, I submit that Alarm cannot be found via the search skill, given this evidence.

..........

Guild Halls, of course, have rules built around them. Unless it was changed, infiltrators who are caught receive a permadeath strike, yes?

..........

A take 20, I have never heard of. Regardless, a take 20 is very different from an auto 20, which usually refers to an auto-success. A take 20 is relatively harmless to a dedicated sneaker, most of the server won't have the necessary spot and listen to back it up. Dedicated spotters can do it, but after the spell nerfs, that really consists of a couple classes. And even then, you should be removing your other stuff to put on your detection gear, which does hamper your ability to fight.

If the sneaker doesn't have the necessary gear, I can see how it would be an issue. But that is inevitable to acquire, since it is all sold in merchants and not reliant on RNG. Every single piece of gear a sneak requires, save 1 piece (a ring of +6 hide, which is fairly common) can be bought from merchants. And 1 other piece can be upgraded from RNG (an epic cloaked amulet, greater cloaked amulets are sold). Other than that, all other slots can be filled with +4 quality sneak gear with AC on top of the hide/MS stats.

[Mallore]

Met. you wrote a lot.

On topic of alarm, it does not say anywhere "a detectable abjuration spell" it says flatly abjuration spells, any and all do.

No where does it say that only spells marked with searchable is searchable as no to few spells are, look at all the rune spells, or symbol spells, which are all searchable and their descriptions do not mention this, you have to read the rules on search to discover this.

So back to Abjuration spells, when two are next to each other for a long time they become easier to find, meaning a single spell could be found as the rest of the school is clearly detectable. ((also remember word count in the printing industry does lead to descriptions being trimmed down thus rules are writen and dms at homes had to rule over all using discretion))



As for guild halls, yes you need a dm. A dm has to rule by whats on the server. So there are spells put on guild halls that are not from the main game, but because search is not written with the ability to detect these spells (which is able) the dm can not allow you to use the skill to find the wards. Thus why I asked for the search description to be updated to include that.

I will like to stay on topic, so I will answer the other stuff some other time.

[Mallore]

Really we can just add the items rogues would buy to detect these spells, all the fancy goggles and lens's from the DMG =P

but they are not programmable... to my knowledge =)

[Blackman D]

spotters do not get an auto 20, the difference is they roll a d10 passively and a d20 in active search mode, elves are always in search mode (and any other with keen senses) so they always roll a d20 - and while in search mode you make 5 checks per round vs 1

on alarm, its fine if its not searchable, i picked it as an example for the DCs... just use another spell and insert adjustments and you still will not exceed the detectable range of a trapper so on the point of having set trap added to searchable glyph and wards the point remains the same: it is reasonable and will not make them impossible to detect vs a skilled trapper (unless of course the skilled trapper is the one setting the ward... but then its ok)

and stealth vs detection is about as balanced as its gonna get, with new gear and the nerf to amp, spotters have to actually invest just as much as sneaks to detect them, compared to having an easy 30+ gap like they use to

[Mallore]

on alarm, its fine if its not searchable, i picked it as an example for the DCs... just use another spell and insert adjustments and you still will not exceed the detectable range of a trapper so on the point of having set trap added to searchable glyph and wards the point remains the same: it is reasonable and will not make them impossible to detect vs a skilled trapper (unless of course the skilled trapper is the one setting the ward... but then its ok)

Im sorry, but it is searchable by the rules of the game. I should have started with this earlier, I thought everyone would have seen the description as it is meant to be. So I now dug up the page and reference from the magic side of it.

Abjuration

Abjurations are protective spells. They create physical or magical barriers, negate magical or physical abilities, harm trespassers, or even banish the subject of the spell to another plane of existence.

If one abjuration spell is active within 10 feet of another for 24 hours or more, the magical fields interfere with each other and create barely visible energy fluctuations. The DC to find such spells with the Search skill drops by 4.

If an abjuration creates a barrier that keeps certain types of creatures at bay, that barrier cannot be used to push away those creatures. If you force the barrier against such a creature, you feel a discernible pressure against the barrier. If you continue to apply pressure, you end the spell.

((PG 172))

Note the word drops.

It does not mean that you need 2 abjuration spells near each other inorder to search for it. It means that it just gets easier the more abjuration spells that are around.

A single abjuration spell can be found by the Rogues Trap Finding Skill via search. ((so no not everyone, its specific tot he trap finding skill and ranks in search, so you have to have both!))

Further more, Alarm is able to be disarmed by the rules. It follows all the normal rules with failure triggering the alarm. As later described in Disarming magical traps. Alarm is a trap. It is part of the Abjuration school of magic and follows the terms, rules, and affects of abjuration magic.

I know it sounds like beating a dead horse.

I hope the above helps. I knew I saw it somewhere.. just couldn't remember where till this morning. sorry to make this a long drawn out thing, and I wish I started with the Abjuration point to show that abjuration magic is searchable by rogues trap finding skill via search.

BDM while your proposal isnt exactly to the rules, I do find it fair. So it should be applied for searching for Abjuration spells such as alarm, and the same number perhaps to disarming alarm.

[Blackman D]

so basically rogue and divine seeker can find magical traps, dont think anyone else gets trap finding

not exactly beating a dead horse tho when its trying to sort confusions

[Tantive]

From the rules, I see only these counted towards actual traps, that fall in the category of magical traps. They have a physical presence in the world.

Explosive Runes Abjuration

Snip. You trace these mystic runes upon a book, map, scroll, or similar object bearing written information. The runes detonate when read. Snip.
Note: Magic traps such as explosive runes are hard to detect and disable. A rogue (only) can use the Search skill to find the runes and Disable Device to thwart them. The DC in each case is 25 + spell level, or 28 for explosive runes.

Fire Trap Abjuration

Snip.Fire trap creates a fiery explosion when an intruder opens the item that the trap protects. A fire trap can ward any object that can be opened and closed. Snip.
Note: Magic traps such as fire trap are hard to detect and disable. A rogue (only) can use the Search skill to find a fire trap and Disable Device to thwart it. The DC in each case is 25 + spell level (DC 27 for a druid’s fire trap or DC 29 for the arcane version).

Glyph of Warding Abjuration

Snip. This powerful inscription harms those who enter, pass, or open the warded area or object. A glyph of warding can guard a bridge or passage, ward a portal, trap a chest or box, and so on. Snip.
Note: Magic traps such as glyph of warding are hard to detect and disable. A rogue (only) can use the Search skill to find the glyph and Disable Device to thwart it. The DC in each case is 25 + spell level, or 28 for glyph of warding.

Symbol Necromancy

Snip. This spell allows you to scribe a potent rune of power upon a surface. Snip.
Note: Magic traps such as symbol of death are hard to detect and disable. A rogue (only) can use the Search skill to find a symbol of death and Disable Device to thwart it. The DC in each case is 25 + spell level, or 33 for symbol of death.

Teleportation Circle Conjuration

Snip. You create a circle on the floor or other horizontal surface that teleports, as greater teleport, any creature who stands on it to a designated spot. Snip. The circle itself is subtle and nearly impossible to notice.
Note: Magic traps such as teleportation circle are hard to detect and disable. A rogue (only) can use the Search skill to find the circle and Disable Device to thwart it. The DC in each case is 25 + spell level, or 34 in the case of teleportation circle.

These are all that are classified as traps. Magic Traps.

Alarm gets no such mention, and doesn't function as a trap on its own. It receives no rules as to find them by search, nor does it give any rules to Disable the device. It doesn't state all abjuration spells are visible by a search check, only when they are near each other for prolonged times can you spot them.

[Blackman D]

i think its not that huge of a deal honestly but

Alarm gets no such mention, and doesn't function as a trap on its own. It receives no rules as to find them by search, nor does it give any rules to Disable the device. It doesn't state all abjuration spells are visible by a search check, only when they are near each other for prolonged times can you spot them.

from what you just said that would then mean if one were to put alarm next to another one then after a while its automatically spotted without a check at all since the interference gives it away... but would otherwise not be subject to detection

so would you rather count it as everything else or have it be auto spotted in such a condition? because in the interest of simplicity i would say count it as everything else

though again if its not counted that means it would also not get a bonus from set trap, since its either not there or auto spotted