Shield Feats

[Rudolph]

The Shield Feat line sorely needs some more explanation - esp. now that getting things wrong cost lots of xp with no more full rcring. I'm hoping that one of you designers can help out so I can start playing a shield build. The following questions are examples of things that are not quite clear from either forum or wiki:

1) How is the damage of the shield attack calculated - with regard to Sneak Attack, Divine Might, Swashbuckler INT dmg, new feats like Northlander Hewing, etc.? Do any other effects apply (e.g. Deafen from Thundering Rage or Crippling)?
2) How many Shield attacks are there per round and which feats, if any, have an impact on that number?
3) With regard to shield fighting, is there a practical difference, apart from their requirements, between TWF and Agile Shield Fighter?
4) Does the Shield Charge knockdown work like a regular Knockdown (using STR modifier) or differently (e.g. as suggested on the wiki, which speaks of tripping)?
5) Does the Shield Bash AB penalty for Tower Shields (-4) include the regular Tower Shield AB penalty or is it added to it (i.e. for a whopping -6 AB in practice that can then be reduced to -2 by TWF/Agile shield fighter feats)?
6) Is the duration of the Shield Slam daze long enough for it to be useful for players without Sneak Attacks? (this also depends on the answer to question 2), I guess)

[Rudolph]

To bump this, point out another bit of conflicting info, and give a little feedback in case the shield feats are still in development, here another question:

What are the prerequisites for Shield Charge? The wiki mentions Knockdown, the forum Agile Shield Fighter. Usually, the forum is right about these things, but if it is in this case, this basically means that Man at Arms becomes a wasteful class choice for a shield fighter: Agile Shield Fighter requires 13 DEX, which makes Heavy Armor Spec. practically obsolete given the available armors.... Seeing that MaA seems otherwise designed for shield use, this seems weird.

[Theodore01]

Agile shield fighter is not needed.
Ingame description Shield Charge: Knockdown, S-Bash, BAB 3.

1) How is the damage of the shield attack calculated - with regard to Sneak Attack, Divine Might, Swashbuckler INT dmg, new feats like Northlander Hewing, etc.? Do any other effects apply (e.g. Deafen from Thundering Rage or Crippling)?
Nothing seems to apply, no inspire courage damage boost (no idea about INT,northlander)
PA,IPA adds damage.

2) How many Shield attacks are there per round and which feats, if any, have an impact on that number?
Unsure of that - my BAB 15 char. has still only one attack.

3) With regard to shield fighting, is there a practical difference, apart from their requirements, between TWF and Agile Shield Fighter?
No

4) Does the Shield Charge knockdown work like a regular Knockdown (using STR modifier) or differently (e.g. as suggested on the wiki, which speaks of tripping)?
It works like knockdown.

5) Does the Shield Bash AB penalty for Tower Shields (-4) include the regular Tower Shield AB penalty ?
Yes

6) Is the duration of the Shield Slam daze long enough for it to be useful for players without Sneak Attacks? (this also depends on the answer to question 2), I guess)
It's wonderful in a party and still useful alone. (Personally i wouldn't take it without sneaks attacks)

[Rudolph]

Thanks, theodore! This already helps a lot. I made a mistake and Agile Shield Fighter wasn't actually a requirement. It's still very useful, though, to counter that Shield Bash penalty and it's a pity it requires DEX 13 given what I mention above.

One follow up to the questions you answered:

5) Does the Shield Bash AB penalty for Tower Shields (-4) include the regular Tower Shield AB penalty ?
Yes

Does this mean ITWF in combination with Shield Bash actually removes both the Shield Bash penalty AND the -2 AB penalty that always comes with a Tower Shield? That's unexpected and interesting...

[Rudolph]

Thanks Chambordini. Full of useful info, as ever.

5)No. Tower shields get a total of -4 ab, -2 from shield bashing and -2 from the base tower shield penatly, the difference in the shield bashing penalty with heavy shields is that tower shields require IMPROVED TWF to deny that penalty. Keep in mind I have never tested this because I always play gnomes that can't wield tower shields, but I have 0 reason to believe anything is otherwise.

If this is the case, does Agile Shield Fighter do anything for Tower Shields? If yes, and judging by any description of the feat I could find, it should either a) deny the Shield Bash penalty for Tower Shields just like ITWF and thus make the latter practically superfluous in connection with shield fighting or b) stack with ITWF and lead to no Tower Shield penalty at all while Shield Bash is on. Which is it?

[mrm3ntalist]

- Just TWF negates the complete penalty when using a Tower Shield and Shield bash.

- Sneak attack damage gets added. There is a script firing when the conditions are met ( sometimes even when they are not like when you are bashing a chest )

- As far as shield slam goes, it depends. The reqs are a lot ( three feats ) and needs high STR. However, if you manage to fit everything, you get a high DC stun every two rounds. Combine it with a knowckdown and/or disarm and you will get a disable almost in every round. A paladin/Cavalier is very efficient in the above. One thing to consider as well, are Mind immune opponets - which are many.

[Rudolph]

- Just TWF negates the complete penalty when using a Tower Shield and Shield bash.

Thanks, mrm3ntalist. Just to confirm (due to some remaining ambiguity), you are saying that TWF alone removes the -2 penalty of Shield Bash also in the case of a Tower Shield, and that neither ITWF nor Agile Shield Fighter do anything in addition to this (i.e. they don't remove the Tower Shield standard penalty). If so, this entails that ITWF is not needed for Shield Fighting at all.

[mrm3ntalist]

- Just TWF negates the complete penalty when using a Tower Shield and Shield bash.

Thanks, mrm3ntalist. Just to confirm (due to some remaining ambiguity), you are saying that TWF alone removes the -2 penalty of Shield Bash also in the case of a Tower Shield, and that neither ITWF nor Agile Shield Fighter do anything in addition to this (i.e. they don't remove the Tower Shield standard penalty). If so, this entails that ITWF is not needed for Shield Fighting at all.

Itwf is not needed. Just twf

[Theodore01]

Why are we not told about such fundamental changes in the server updates

Just did a quick test with my basher.
mrm3ntalist is right - TWF negates the complete penalty when using a Tower Shield and Shield bash.
However using Shield Slam with tower shield still gets the additional penalty from a tower.

Is that an oversight ? Can the Wiki be updated accordingly

These penalties can be reduced or negated with the Two weapon (heavy & tower shields) and Improved Two Weapon Fighting feats (applicable to towershields only).

Will do more testing later.

[mrm3ntalist]

Why are we not told about such fundamental changes in the server updates

it wasnt changed. It was always like that.

[Valefort]

And everyone is free to update the wiki so go do it Theodore

[Theodore01]

And everyone is free to update the wiki so go do it Theodore

I can try, but i don't want to change something on assumptions.

My question remains:

As TWF negates the complete penalty when using a Tower Shield and Shield bash.
(that's a new info and contraire to the feat description)

However using Shield Slam with tower shield still gets the additional penalty from a tower.
(that is like the original feat description was worded)

Is that an oversight ? Clearly one or the other is not working as it should.

(i can put a screenshot here, if needed)