Summons and Augmented Summons feat application)

[Steve]

Hey,



So, with Augmented Summoning giving a +4 to STR and CON automatically—and here we assume that it happens automatically—can I make a suggestion that Summons have Even Numbered Stats, so that this Feat actually works to its full potential?

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On another note, I've noticed that Summons and Allies and Binding choices are pretty much the same, just a different "skin," one can say. All these really cool choices when summoning, but most of the time, the choice is mechanically the same choice!!

So I wonder if Summons/Allies/Bindings could get to have unique stats and feats to them, stuff that reflects their nature. Now, this comes off as A LOT of work, but I'm willing to help make this happen. Is there a list of what the current Summons stats are, that can be pulled from a .2da file? Or, would each Summons from each possible Spell need to be created in the Toolset, then applied to a .2da file?

Either way, if someone with a bigger brain than mine would give me a few tips, I'd like to help make this happen (if approved from the Staff side). Thoughts?

[Nachti]

Summons are stored as toolset creatures and called by a script. Its pretty easy to adjust them. Its just alot of work to define each creature.

[Valefort]

What Nachti said, there are no 2da files but creatures blueprints to create in the toolset. Once they're done they can be added to the server and used for summoning.

[Nachti]

The question is, does the staff & server want summons to be tuned?

- pictures gone. voices fixed.
- balancing?
- propably a few new creatures.
- outsider summons redone but not stronger then others of the same level.
- epic gate creature variation.

and how long would it take to get implemented? 1 Month adding, 1 Month QC? No fun in creating stuff that never gets live.

[Valefort]

Pictures and voices are bottom priorities come on !

At the moment the creatures from the Gate spell are being redone, the weak ones : djinn, hezrou, erynies , succubus, horned devil, elementals (as those were the same one that come from summon IX) and shadow demon.

That is one spell and there are 10 blueprints to create, it's not done in 2 minutes, kudos to Blackman D for actually volunteering for that !

Now if there are other volunteers for the 56 (it's not an exageration) other summoning spells : line up.

[Nachti]

I propably volunteer for it as I have holidays and I already made the undead summons for sigil.

Just say what spell and what "powerlevel" I should aim for.

I assume:

gate: all creatures 20 HD, short duration.
summon IX: 20 HD, long duration, a bit weaker then gate.
shades: 16 HD shadow, long duration.
summon greater undead: 16 HD, short duration (2rounds/level)
greater planar binding (8): 16 HD, long duration
planar binding(6): 12 HD, long duration
lesser planar binding (5): 8 HD, long duration

new spells untouched? palemaster, blackguard, shadowdancer no change, right?

I also would need details on what Black plans for gate.

[Valefort]

No need to be two on the same spell, Gate is covered. The other spells that need to be looked at are probably the conjure x spells, ie these :

http://bgtscc.wikia.com/wiki/Call_Shadow_Pack
http://bgtscc.wikia.com/wiki/Conjure_Animals
http://bgtscc.wikia.com/wiki/Conjure_Spiders
http://bgtscc.wikia.com/wiki/Conjure_Metalmen
http://bgtscc.wikia.com/wiki/Call_Elementals
http://bgtscc.wikia.com/wiki/Sand_Warriors
http://bgtscc.wikia.com/wiki/Lure_Shadow_Demons

These spells last up to 20 rounds flat but can summon up to three creatures of the same kind so they can be tricky to work with.

We've got some code that can buff up summons to make them scale with CL to some extent but for some spells the basic blueprints are so weak they would need special treatment.

Call shadow pack uses the vanilla blueprint : c_dogshado => it's okay at start but when you're CL 20 they are totally useless, even when buffed up. One 8 HD blueprint and one 12 HD blueprint would be best to make them scale gradually.

Same idea for Conjure metalmen, it uses the vanilla blueprint : c_bladeling, it would need at least a 8 HD blueprint and a 16 HD one.

Try your hand on these two and post what you come up with

[Mallore]

Ooooooo. Variant summons are cool.

But two cents here. Most people uber buff there summons. The favorite being elder earth elemental. I do fear seeing any summoned made better then with player buffs might mean "my pet is better then your fighter". Just a thought.


Mentioning shadow dance. It be nice if the summoned shadow would scale more. It's rather useless past level 20 and the high level content it just does or can't do anything, like flank properly. In the pnp it suggests it's some interesting traits.

Do I guess that was 4 cents total.

[Valefort]

Let's be clear, what is wanted is variety, not power ups. The power of the classic summons I to IX ( V excepted, it's horribly bad), is the ceiling. Make interesting summons, think special abilities, spells that the AI might use but not fighter 20 summons (or expect your work to not be used).

Shadowdancer shadows are also being looked at by BMD, they're pretty tricky to get right because contrary to most other summons the summoner can't really buff the shadow.

[Mallore]

I bet this impossible and not sure if it's abusive.

I always wanted a pack mule summon. Literally as silly little pony I can make carry my stuff for a bit. I always find that random +2 plate and always have to leave it behind lol.

Sorry if this one was off topic. But it be kinda a cool summon alt. Just something with str and a manage inventory feature.

[Nachti]

I do not aim for powercreep but variety, d&d lore accuraccy and usefulness.

1. So for the following spells are updated creatures wanted?

1-3 Creatures:
Conjure Sand Warriors (4)
Conjure Shadowpack (5) 4,8,12
Conjure Animals (6)
Conjure Elementals (6)
Conjure Spiders (7)
Lure Shadow Demons (8)
Conjure Metalman (8)

1 Creature:
Shades (9)
Greater planar binding (8)
planar binding (6)
lesser planar binding (5)
Create Undead (6)

2. How are they supposted to scale in therm of strength? So far I know our I-IX summons dont scale at all.

V: 12 HD Animal (9 AB)
VI: 13 HD Elemental (9 AB)
VII: 16 HD Elemental (12 AB)
VIII: 17 HD elemental (12 AB)
XI: 20 HD elemental (15 AB)
Gate: 20 HD Outsider (20 AB)

Lets say I make a single creature for level 5 spell. I can give it 12 HD and make it on pair with Summon V. If we let it scale, it would be 14 or 16 HD and thus powercreep. If i make it weaker then 12 HD and allow it to scale - no one will use it.

So on pair+scaling or no scaling?

3. Assuming scaling is wanted:
Shadowpack is a level 5 spell, lasts shorter and summons up to 3 creatures. I would make them shadowly assassins.

Orginal: Outsider (6) with 6 AB and 1d6 sneak.
CL 15: to Outsider (9) and 2d6 sneak
CL 20: to Outsider (12) with 3d6 sneak and hips (however I dont think script works for summons).

[Nachti]

I bet this impossible and not sure if it's abusive.

I always wanted a pack mule summon. Literally as silly little pony I can make carry my stuff for a bit. I always find that random +2 plate and always have to leave it behind lol.

Sorry if this one was off topic. But it be kinda a cool summon alt. Just something with str and a manage inventory feature.

Its possible. Think of the merchants that can store items for you. Just give a similiar conv to an mule and it works.

[Nachti]

The weird thing is that everyone speaks of not summon powercreeping but it already happened.

Palemaster summon is a lvl 16 Fighter typ with 1d2 damage.
Create Greater Undead was once lvl 15 Fighter but is now lvl 17.
Greater Planar Binding summons lvl 17 Outsider. Duration: 1min/lvl or perma with thaumaturg.

You can summon a horned devil with 35 ac and 35 str.
Other summons suck. They have a 4d4 mainhand but 1d8 secondaries.
The djinn sucks even more. He is stuck at lvl 6? and wears no weapon.


Gate lets you summon a balor with which has been designed as two-weapon-fighter but whip was never added. However you can enchant his blade to +5. His counterpart is the pit fiend which is named "a devil" and uses his claws which cant be enchanted.

Probably both shouldnt be summoned anyway.

[Rasael]

Nachti,

I'm not sure if Valefort already gave you the go-ahead.

I think you can go ahead and make replacement blueprints for all the summons.
If you keep in mind the current powerlevels and avoid empowering beyond that I don't expect QC will object to them.

Once you finish your batch I'll pass them to QC to peruse. They might ask for a small number of adjustments, or just ask some questions. I will involve you in that.

[Blackman D]

already talkin with him on that