Barbarian build for my come back(looking for Feedback)

[Valefort]

1. You realize Evasion is only good with a high reflex save right?

First it grants you access to expose weakness, secondly saves aren't that hard to get high enough with items. 19 is enough for most things, evasion is valuable.

What's wrong with Barbarian AC ? Nothing, especially not when raging.

They get +2 AC at level 20 and otherwise if we compare a barb 30 to your http://nwn2db.com/build/?256647 fighter 30 build where the only AC feat you pick are LoH and Weapon supremacy. Picking LoH is fine on the Barbarian so we're left with +1 AC for the babr .. which is offset by the use of a towershield for the fighter so a a small +1 AC for the fighter.

However that's without taking into account the bonuses to AC when raging, which are considerable : between Ice Troll berserker and epic rage AC bonus the Barbarian has +8 natural AC and +5 dodge AC when raging, for a nifty +9 AC, allowing to go two-handed while raging without issues.

2. DR is good against physical attacks, but some early and high level characters like the ooze and giant rely more on elemental attacks than physical attacks. I'm not saying DR isn't good, but in the long run you are relying on the same items as Fighters, which is to reduce elemental damage.

So ... what ? Having physical DR is still better than none ? As you point you can also use items to reduce elemental damage, but that's true for everyone.

3. Yeah, I read up on that Northern feat and it is access to everyone as I playing a bard when I saw the feat in my general feats selection. Fighters can do both one hand and two hand.

On thing you didn't mention is Ww Frenzy Barbarian get +7 to 9 extra AC in the long run, if they get epic rage.

I wasn't even talking about Northlander Hewing but like you pointed Barbs get high AC when raging, another notch for Barbarians.

Expose Weakness is good for one on one pvp, but -3 AC and period damage against hordes of enemies? Great Cleave> EW

This almost never happens in PvE, swarms of enemies mean 3 enemies and that's if you screwed up also monsters have high HP so you will land several expose weakness before actually killing one monster, making the feat that more valuable because most of your attacks will hit.

[WhatsInTheBox]

The reason i spent 30 points on tumble was to represent the extra skill points I had to spend for the cross classing the skill points

[ARHicks00]

1. You realize Evasion is only good with a high reflex save right?

First it grants you access to expose weakness, secondly saves aren't that hard to get high enough with items. 19 is enough for most things, evasion is valuable.

Early in the game maybe, but I haven't been through most of the server so I'm not going to say whether the Ref DC goes beyond 20.

What's wrong with Barbarian AC ? Nothing, especially not when raging.

I didn't say they were bad AC, I said they get +9 AC compared to Fighter. Read it again.

They get +2 AC at level 20 and otherwise if we compare a barb 30 to your http://nwn2db.com/build/?256647 fighter 30 build where the only AC feat you pick are LoH and Weapon supremacy. Picking LoH is fine on the Barbarian so we're left with +1 AC for the babr .. which is offset by the use of a towershield for the fighter so a a small +1 AC for the fighter.

Actually, three, which is dodge, LoH, and weapon Supremacy. Normally, it would get 49 AC in the server, but without the full 30 Tumble, it's AC will get 46 to 47, if you move feats around.

However...

I just explain this in my last post.

So ... what ? Having physical DR is still better than none ? As you point you can also use items to reduce elemental damage, but that's true for everyone.

No, it isn't true for everyone. Bards, Clerics, Dragon Slayers, Mages, and Druids don't have issues with elemental damage thanks to high AC or elemental damage reduction spells. Unless I guarantee a +4 heavy shield of 20/- fire or something of that nature, Fighters, Rangers (to an extend), Rogues, and Barbarians, aren't working with much to reduce elemental damage. My point was that while Barbarians have DR, their DR isn't high enough negate all of high level character damage, specially when it is a mixture of physical and elemental.

I wasn't even talking about Northlander Hewing but like you pointed Barbs get high AC when raging, another notch for Barbarians.

That's really it when I noted about WwF, but they can only do WwF a short amount of time because they get no Con bonus unlike standard rage. Utility feats/Saves > Defense AC.

This almost never happens in PvE, swarms of enemies mean 3 enemies and that's if you screwed up also monsters have high HP so you will land several expose weakness before actually killing one monster, making the feat that more valuable because most of your attacks will hit.

Um...and considering I went along a group to fight fire giants, you get swarmed. EW works against one on one battles, not group battles. (Ditto in love level areas with three or more people) My level 8 Rogue/Fighter/Weapon/Divine champ had 41 AC and still got hit despite being nearly unhittable. And by the way, he was facing the enemy he was fighting. Melee type then to not do well against multiple group due to the lack of AOE (WWA does one round of one attack of standard damage) or glancing blow type moves. (Circle Kick) Sure there is Great Cleave and Cleave, but they only work when you kill someone. They are especially good if you can do high critical hit damage.

My point is Fighters do waaaay better in the damage depart while being tanky where as Barbarian can only do this so long as they pick the right rage.

The reason i spent 30 points on tumble was to represent the extra skill points I had to spend for the cross classing the skill points

That's cool and all. I support your Barbarian choice and I hope it works out for you.

[Valefort]

The spawning system scales with the number of PCs, if you're in a group then you might get swarmed.

No, it isn't true for everyone. Bards, Clerics, Dragon Slayers, Mages, and Druids don't have issues with elemental damage thanks to high AC or elemental damage reduction spells. Unless I guarantee a +4 heavy shield of 20/- fire or something of that nature, Fighters, Rangers (to an extend), Rogues, and Barbarians, aren't working with much to reduce elemental damage. My point was that while Barbarians have DR, their DR isn't high enough negate all of high level character damage, specially when it is a mixture of physical and elemental.

Why are you tossing in those classes now ? We were comparing barbarians to fighter ! And no they don't have anything to reduce elemental damage apart from items (amulets ftw). Besides most elemental damage comes from spells and traps and you have .. evasion that's right. Even if you'll fail sometimes that will still be better than not having evasion at all.

My point is Fighters do waaaay better in the damage depart while being tanky where as Barbarian can only do this so long as they pick the right rage.

On that I agree, the Rage choice is a no brainer, they don't compare. But which barbarian would not pick whirlwind frenzy ? If you pick whirlwind then you're tankier and do more damage than the fighter while retaining good AC, just not forever. So in conclusion and to come back on your initial point, which was that Barbarians are always outdone by fighters : False.

[ARHicks00]

The spawning system scales with the number of PCs, if you're in a group then you might get swarmed.

That was my point. Unless solo this entire game that was built for group play, you're going to get swarmed so it is best to build your character for defense, saves, and utility than damage, high HP, and high AB. A WwF barbarian can be this for 5 rounds, not counting any extended rage feats, but then that just takes away from his overall utility. A epic standard rage barbarian can do this for a 1 minute and one round. Fighters can just switch between stances and feats.

Why are you tossing in those classes now ?

Because you said it's the same with everyone. Not everyone of these classes in this server has the same problems. Most of these classes have an answer to a problem. Barbarians and Fighters do not. In fact, barbarians like fighter depend on items to lower damage done to them. They have a high HP and fair amount of DR (nothing wrong with that), but a low AC or worse, a low reflex save can lead to a lot of problems. A well place grease can make your life miserable if you're going up with someone or NPC with a high DC. The other classes I mention have very few problems with this and can answer such spells, Barbarians and Fighters cannot. Ditto with elemental damage from weapons.

On that I agree, the Rage choice is a no brainer, they don't compare. But which barbarian would not pick whirlwind frenzy ? If you pick whirlwind then you're tankier and do more damage than the fighter while retaining good AC, just not forever. So in conclusion and to come back on your initial point, which was that Barbarians are always outdone by fighters : False.

If you're whirlwind, you're not trying to tank in the covenantal sense. That would be standard rage barbarian. If you're playing WwF Barbarian, you're trying to pull a short burst of "Soresu" style fighting in which try to fend off attacks while trying to land your own. Standard barbarian is like the "Juyo" of fighting in which you put that extra HP too good use, charge forward, and put your toughness/steadfast determination to work combined with your newly boost Constitution. One of the biggest weakeness of a barbarian is not Reflex, but Will save as a hold spell is pretty much GG for any fighter type with a low will save. WwF Barbarians are not strong in that area, but standards are. WwF may avoid the fireball for 5 rounds, but what about the hold spell? A standard barbarian will eat the fireball and nearly ignore the hold spell, which is a nightmare for mage than anything.

[Valefort]

lol, the wwf barb will use an item to cast protection against alignement and continue. And recast the spell if he is dispelled (plus if you're not solo then hopefully your party warded the low will barbarian !).

The difference between normal rage and wwf rage is the CON bnous given by he rage which is pretty insignificant when you compare it to the rage duration if you take all the extend rage feats, which are pretty much must take feats, there's a reason Barbarians were given bonus feats.

And 45 AC is high enough for most everything so saying fighters and barbs have low AC is ridiculous

As for swarming can't your fellows take a few hits ? If you're attacked by more than 3 creatures at the same time it's exceptional (not intentionally pulling mobs around ofc), I want screenshots !

Because you said it's the same with everyone. Not everyone of these classes in this server has the same problems. Most of these classes have an answer to a problem. Barbarians and Fighters do not. In fact, barbarians like fighter depend on items to lower damage done to them. They have a high HP and fair amount of DR (nothing wrong with that), but a low AC or worse, a low reflex save can lead to a lot of problems. A well place grease can make your life miserable if you're going up with someone or NPC with a high DC. The other classes I mention have very few problems with this and can answer such spells, Barbarians and Fighters cannot. Ditto with elemental damag

But how common are those NPCs and elemental damage you're speaking about ? Not common at all. As said earlier most elemental damage comes from spellcasters and traps, not enchanted magical weapons wielded by mobs (make a list of such monsters, it's short).

Fighters have more endurance but they won't be able to make a 2 hander with as much AC as a raging barbarian (and you can build to be able to rage for more than the rest timer).

[Steve]

I've been thinking that a Barbarian 20 / Bard 3 / Dread Pirate 7 would combine to make a fun Viking type!

[WhatsInTheBox]

Got one more question... is there a way to fix the cooldown bug other than resting? I forgot about that and playing a barbarian with a bugged rage cooldown is awful >.<

[Rhifox]

Got one more question... is there a way to fix the cooldown bug other than resting? I forgot about that and playing a barbarian with a bugged rage cooldown is awful >.<

Right click and use the ability from the popup menu?

[WhatsInTheBox]

Right forgot about that method. Thanks again!

[ARHicks00]

lol, the wwf barb will use an item to cast protection against alignement and continue. And recast the spell if he is dispelled (plus if you're not solo then hopefully your party warded the low will barbarian !).feats.

And 45 AC is high enough for most everything so saying fighters and barbs have low AC is ridiculous

As for swarming can't your fellows take a few hits ? If you're attacked by more than 3 creatures at the same time it's exceptional (not intentionally pulling mobs around ofc), I want screenshots !

The difference between normal rage and wwf rage is the CON bnous given by he rage which is pretty insignificant when you compare it to the rage duration if you take all the extend rage feats, which are pretty much must take feats, there's a reason Barbarians were given bonus

Because you said it's the same with everyone. Not everyone of these classes in this server has the same problems. Most of these classes have an answer to a problem. Barbarians and Fighters do not. In fact, barbarians like fighter depend on items to lower damage done to them. They have a high HP and fair amount of DR (nothing wrong with that), but a low AC or worse, a low reflex save can lead to a lot of problems. A well place grease can make your life miserable if you're going up with someone or NPC with a high DC. The other classes I mention have very few problems with this and can answer such spells, Barbarians and Fighters cannot. Ditto with elemental damag

But how common are those NPCs and elemental damage you're speaking about ? Not common at all. As said earlier most elemental damage comes from spellcasters and traps, not enchanted magical weapons wielded by mobs (make a list of such monsters, it's short).

Fighters have more endurance but they won't be able to make a 2 hander with as much AC as a raging barbarian (and you can build to be able to rage for more than the rest timer).

1. The post has dragged on long enough my point was a barbarian is basically a buff melee class that relies too heavily on it's buffs and lacks utility, which in the long run is worth more than a buff. While a WwF does better in the defense department, it's not good every where else whereas the standard barbarian is pretty good as they can still be defensive and soak up damage for minutes on end. (while withstanding mind-affecting spells without potions) A fighter superior because of their utility and ability to defenses.

2. If you need a potion to make up for what you lack then play a class that can easily overcome it. Having a Barbarian who can deal with Will saves means he has to carry less potions, scrolls, or wands. I have a bard, but I don't carry every wand with me as I have a lot of spell that can make up for what I lack and I try to emphasis high saves. I only carry potions or scrolls of restoration because bards don't have any spells to remove negative effects. Also you assume NPC or PC is evil or vice versa to use PAA. Again, if you went standard rage with toughness/steadfast determination, the spell is likely to affect you.

3. Never said fighter or Barbarian had low AC, I said in the long run a fighter will better saves, AC, and skills.

4. This is going on the idea that people in your group can tank. If it is just you, you have to be prepared for the worse. I've been in groups with my bard where I was the only one capable of tanking.

5. Elemental spells and attacks start at CR 1 when you enter the necromancer's lair. Ooze and necromancer herself use elemental spells. This continues in other places you go so that it is very common.

6. Fighters have more versatility. Versatility > Straight forward. WwF has to readjust their tactics because unlike standard rage, their duration are shorter, even with extend rage.