Spirit Shaman

[mrm3ntalist]

and limit the ridiculously high AC that one can get with the combination of monk and Nightwalker for example.

Horned Devil and Nightwalker.

And if there's any nerf there it should be to the monk/shaman multiclassing, not shapechange. Horned Devil and Nightwalker are the only shapechange forms that are useful and nerfing them would just make shapechange worthless. The problem with monk/shaman + shapechange is in the monk/shaman combination. BG has Monk/Druid banned for exactly this reason, just whatever devs decided to change that forgot that Shaman benefits from multiclassing with Monk just as much as druid. Either both should be banned or neither.

Wouldnt not transfering the bonus on AC from monk to the shape work? With no need to ban monk/SS combos. I think it would work nicely

And I'd be in favor of neither and just removing or nerfing Owl's Insight. That's really where the problem lies.

Owls insight gives what, +6 AC? even without owls, such a character can reach 80AC. Do you consider this fine from just a spell?
Obviously, Owls is not the issue here.

[Sputnik]

Wouldnt not transfering the bonus on AC from monk to the shape work? With no need to ban monk/SS combos. I think it would work nicely

That sounds like a viable step. It won't force players of such builds to re-build either.

Don't forget about the Wisdom bonus to AC. That is where the majority of the boost from the combo comes from. Most Monk/SS builds would probably only dip into monk to retain a high CL, so the Wisdom bonus dwarfs the monk AC bonus in many cases.

This would eliminate any need to nerf owl's insight, and monk/ss builds could still get very high AC... just not over 20 above the best melee tanks anymore. That sounds very reasonable in my opinion.

[mrm3ntalist]

Wouldnt not transfering the bonus on AC from monk to the shape work? With no need to ban monk/SS combos. I think it would work nicely

That sounds like a viable step. It won't force players of such builds to re-build either.

Don't forget about the Wisdom bonus to AC. That is where the majority of the boost from the combo comes from. Most Monk/SS builds would probably only dip into monk to retain a high CL, so the Wisdom bonus dwarfs the monk AC bonus in many cases.

This would eliminate any need to nerf owl's insight, and monk/ss builds could still get very high AC... just not over 20 above the best melee tanks anymore. That sounds very reasonable in my opinion.

In addition, the other shapes ( giants, golems etc ) can be made more useful.
All shapes should get their magic properties too. Immunities etc.

Basically a suggestion would be to prevent Horned Devil and nightwwalker from reaching such high AC, while at the same time "buff" the other shapes in order for them to be more useful.

[Rhifox]

Wouldnt not transfering the bonus on AC from monk to the shape work? With no need to ban monk/SS combos. I think it would work nicely

If that's doable, that could work. May want to do the same for Int to AC bonus from Duelist/Invisible Blade if so.

If you could do that though, then couldn't the same be done with wildshape in order to remove the ban on monk/druid combos?

Owls insight gives what, +6 AC? even without owls, such a character can reach 80AC. Do you consider this fine from just a spell?
Obviously, Owls is not the issue here.

Perhaps not. It just feels particularly high since between a naturally high wis score and owl's insight you can get +10 to +12 AC from Wisdom alone.

[mrm3ntalist]

If that's doable, that could work.

Its doable

May want to do the same for Int to AC bonus from Duelist/Invisible Blade if so.

Is those classes a problem? IB has many feat requirements and require to raise int. Basically you waste many feats for +4AC ( if 14INT ). The same with duelist. However, if you have a build in mind we can take a look at it

If you could do that though, then couldn't the same be done with wildshape in order to remove the ban on monk/druid combos?

That is an interesting suggestion worth looking into.

Owls insight gives what, +6 AC? even without owls, such a character can reach 80AC. Do you consider this fine from just a spell?
Obviously, Owls is not the issue here.

Perhaps not. It just feels particularly high since between a naturally high wis score and owl's insight you can get +10 to +12 AC from Wisdom alone.

This is true. Normally I would be against such high bonus. However both druids and SSs using that spell, cannot reach as high DCs as arcane casters can.

[Sputnik]

In addition, the other shapes ( giants, golems etc ) can be made more useful.
All shapes should get their magic properties too. Immunities etc.

Basically a suggestion would be to prevent Horned Devil and nightwwalker from reaching such high AC, while at the same time "buff" the other shapes in order for them to be more useful.

+10!

I know a couple SS players who only use the devil and nightwalker forms out of necessity. Their RP would be much better suited to other forms, but these are so underpowered that it's unfortunately not viable.

Coupled with the above suggestions, this would nerf monk/ss combos to reasonable levels, while gving the shapechange spell more versatility and RP flavor.

[Wyatt]

Given the nature of our server is there really any effective difference in power between a monk/ss with 60 ac and one with 80 ac? With all the other druid buff spells it is going to be a virtually undamageable tank anyway. I admit I haven't played one but it seems like it would just be a low damage tank build akin to a druid or dwarven defender simply outlasting enemies. As a gish it can't take advantage of intuitive attack for wisdom to ab nor will it have monk improved damage if it wants to maintain 30 cl.

[Rhifox]

Is those classes a problem? IB has many feat requirements and require to raise int. Basically you waste many feats for +4AC ( if 14INT ). The same with duelist. However, if you have a build in mind we can take a look at it

I believe adding duelist is one of the routes to getting 80+ levels on shapechange. Oh, and Fist of the Forest for the AC from Con. That's a lot easier for a monk/shaman multiclass to reach.

I don't know the exact builds though. It's not something I've done, I've just heard snippets from people who have.

[mrm3ntalist]

I believe adding duelist is one of the routes to getting 80+ levels on shapechange. Oh, and Fist of the Forest for the AC from Con. That's a lot easier for a monk/shaman multiclass to reach.

I don't know the exact builds though. It's not something I've done, I've just heard snippets from people who have.

From the top of my head, I dont think that will make an efficient build. At the very least it will be dispellable. I will look more into it though.

[kkrazlite]

and limit the ridiculously high AC that one can get with the combination of monk and Nightwalker for example.

If there's any nerf there it should be to the monk/shaman multiclassing, not shapechange. Horned Devil and Nightwalker are the only shapechange forms that are useful and nerfing them would just make shapechange worthless. The problem with monk/shaman + shapechange is in the monk/shaman combination. BG has Monk/Druid banned for exactly this reason, just whatever devs decided to implement that ban forgot that Shaman benefits from multiclassing with Monk just as much as druid. Either both should be banned or neither.

And I'd be in favor of neither and just removing or nerfing Owl's Insight. That's really where the problem lies.

Right but you have to realize if a spirit shaman does decide to do this they will most likely yes have indeed good AC but their Ab and damage will be average. . . Even worst so their caster level and DC's will be less then sub-par due to trying to max WIS instead of CHA which makes them as any type of caster virtually useless as the druidic spell book is centered around having a good caster level / DC making your spell choice VERRYY limited only to buffs . . . Oh and some people might have forgotten this but unlike the druidic way of shapechanging which CANNOT be dispelled. . . Spirit-shaman shapechange can very much so be dispelled and very easily. So as you can see there are pros and cons to doing the monk . spirit shaman combination, but in the case of druid/ monk there is little con, since all druids need i 1 level of monk and then they can max their WIS stat without little care in the world with MAX AC, MAX CL, MAX DC's and even having the starting stats to spare for INT for skill points.

Let's also mention that most people who choose to go SS/ Monk usually try to dip into Sacred Fist as well. To which they are pron to more AC and better CL yes. . . But their AB gets hit by a -9 since their poly-morphed natural weapon counts as a "Weapon" and not a unarmed strike.

This is coming from a person who has been playing and testing the Spirit Shaman / Monk combination on the live servers for 7 months now.

[Nemni]

Completly agree with kkrazlite. A shaman could get higher AC than a druid, but in contrast the druid get more damage, AB, better DCs and the ability to cast while shifted.

[mrm3ntalist]

Just to be clear. You guys agree that it is alright to get 80+ ac from a spell?

[Young Werther]

I've done a SS/hiero/cleric. With blood magic it let's you get extended divine power for quite awhile and with the right deity you can pick up expose weakness and uncanny dodge (for divine shield). Here it is: http://nwn2db.com/build/?245082.

I don't use shape change with it, just my choice of weapon and all those damage buffs. Yeah, gotta take a martial weapon feat for the good weapons tho. I did in epics.

[Nemni]

80 AC does sound extreme, but I don't really know how you get such a high number. Is 80 AC really that much better than 60 or 70 AC though? (honest question, I don't know). Is it better with a great AC than having a good AC and the ability to cast heal/regeneration/new premonition mid fight?

My point is rather that if a shifted shaman is better than a shifted druid in one aspect, but worse in many others, then it seems strange to me to focus on that one aspect. Maybe I am just biased

[Wyatt]

Just to be clear. You guys agree that it is alright to get 80+ ac from a spell?

I can't see how 80 ac is any more op than 60 ac on our server. I can't think of many if any areas where the extra ac would make a difference. Most of my characters are fine at 45 to 50 ac. 80 is overkill and doesn't actually add effective power once you are over the uncrittable cap. I suppose it helps in pvp but as far as i've seen pvp is mostly powerbuilt casters anyway and they cna dispell.