Command/Bolster Undead for Evil Clerics

[aaron22]

but the draolich is in a single room. if you cannot transition out you can have fun doing nothing in a room with a big dracolich

[The Whistler]

Like I said, command undead would have to be a separate feat or a mode which you can turn on and off. Otherwise it could turn into a hindrance, yeah

[aaron22]

what if a feat could be utilized to provide an alternative to the summon creature line for clerics that would be an appropriate difficulty undead creature. the feat could have requirements so that dedication in necromatic arts is needed to select the feat

[Blackman D]

VoD trash becomes a cakewalk. If you build for maximum turnage, so's the Dracolich. There's plenty of mechanical advantage here.

not even sure what you mean by this?

the draco is 40HD and exceeds even a MLs turning power (max HD possible is only 35HD), there would be no advantage gained to fight it

[Storm Munin]

I suppose I was unclear above concerning PM, the prerequisite would still be lv3 arcane spell casting.
My suggestion was to allow choosing to select the PM levels as divine rather then arcane as desired when you pick the first level of the class.
As it work for Stormsingers currently.
The Palemaster description on our wikia do point at crossclassing arcane/divine as is.

FvS arguably does not come with a EDM requirement, at least mine have done well without it. @Whistler Didnt know those spells offered summoning 3 undead summons and the other class fun stuff.


The addition of the suggested selectable feats command/bolster to offer more roleplay/diversity oriented selection of feats do look promising imho.

/M

[Nachti]

17 Cleric, 10 Hierophant, 3 Blackguard.

Spells:
- Consecrate, grants undeads in area +1 attack, dmg and saves and +3 vs turning.
- Greater Reflect Pain, Fort save fail and minions dont take damage.
- Save or die Spells, Buffing spells, Inflict damage spells.

Feats:
- Hierophant's "Mastery of Energy" might increases Hit Dice by 4. So you can control a total of 38 HD (Cleric Level + 4 for good turning check roll +4 mastery of energy) creatures.
- Hierophant's "Blast Infidel" lets you heal double amount on undeads.
- Aura of Despair, strengthens undeads on hit effects and greater reflect pain.

if its suppose to work like turn undead then the half level is only the control limit not the creature max, the damage dice would remain the creature max so if you have a cleric that can do over 50HD total damage you would be able to control up to 15HD undead x3 (45HD) and if you took feats to push your max over 60HD you would get x4 undead, but given you can not drag dominated creatures from outside their map, controlling them would be completely pointless since there would be nowhere you could actually do it when you needed to

answer, srd20:

Undead that would be turned are rebuked instead, and those that would be destroyed are commanded.
(sorry got wrong line before)

Effect and Duration of Turning
The turned creature acts as if rebuked and stands still, taking a -2 penalty to AC, and have their dexterity bonus lost (if above 10, the score is set to 10 if they can be affected by ability damage). This effect lasts for 10 rounds.

If you have twice as many cleric levels (or more) as the creature has Hit Dice, you destroy (supernaturally kill) the creature instead.

Destroying Undead
If you have twice as many levels (or more) as the undead have Hit Dice, you destroy any that you would normally turn.

[Blackman D]

I suppose I was unclear above concerning PM

no i understood it, just dont agree with it

Undead that would be turned are rebuked instead, and those that would be destroyed are commanded.

which is what i basically said yes, people tend to forget there are two sides to turning, max HD and max dice

max HD is from turning progression, your cleric/pally/BG/qualifying PrC levels and destruction/command requires twice the amount from this (15HD needs 30 progression)

max dice is damage, that determines how many you can actually affect, if your max dice is only say 25, then you can only affect a single 15HD undead with a single turn, if your max dice is 45 then you can do up to 3 15HD undead as far as command/destruction goes

so command undead would be nice because it should have otherwise been in game in the first place... but practical use of it will be nonexistent because at the level where you need to use it there will basically be no difference between the two since you are only ever going to awe/rebuke

however as far as builds go, there would ultimately be nothing new that cant already be done now, so a divine necromancer would still be fairly limited or otherwise really be no different than just a typical evil cleric now

[The Whistler]

Ah, I see. I wasn't aware of the limitation of needing to have twice the undead's HD in TU levels in order to be able to command it. Yes, that is problematic, but couldn't it be modified to allow the domination of =<34 HD creatures ?

I guess I misunderstood nachti and blackman's earlier comments on how command undead works. Damn, I would have spared myself that embarassing comment if I did not !

[Blackman D]

but couldn't it be modified to allow the domination of =<34 HD creatures ?

definitely not... while control doesnt kill anything it wouldnt be fair to normal TU for destruction and we sure as hell wouldnt want people to be able to just waltz thru the vault of the dead killing them with just a turn...

[aaron22]

but couldn't it be modified to allow the domination of =<34 HD creatures ?

definitely not... while control doesnt kill anything it wouldnt be fair to normal TU for destruction and we sure as hell wouldnt want people to be able to just waltz thru the vault of the dead killing them with just a turn...

well it could.. a feat could be scripted to increase max HD while command toggle was active. deactivated while off. so turning/rebuking/destroying would remain normal max HD.

[Blackman D]

probably but thats not the point and would be even worse to do it that way because now you are letting them control everything in the vault easily

[aaron22]

you would be able to control just max HD mob(s) at a time and would still have to fight/turn all the other ones. and that is just in one zone at a time. it would cost three feats to have that kind of turn power as well as focuses in that aspect to achieve. you also would not be able to command through transitions and dracolich should/would be above this bonus. so in there you would need help.

in my opinion it puts a cleric built in this form on par with a simulacrum casting wizzy in a duo or group. but only for a couple places. outside of VoD or a dm event that is ravenloft style. the cleric is pretty much a somewhat weaker version of a typical cleric build. pretty specialized if you ask me. sounds fun, but defiantly specialized.

my concern would be someone abusing it in FoD. gathering a big group of skellies and ghosts and using them to harass passerby-ers or afk grinding.

[mrm3ntalist]

you would be able to control just max HD mob(s) at a time and would still have to fight/turn all the other ones. and that is just in one zone at a time. it would cost three feats to have that kind of turn power as well as focuses in that aspect to achieve. you also would not be able to command through transitions and dracolich should/would be above this bonus. so in there you would need help.

in my opinion it puts a cleric built in this form on par with a simulacrum casting wizzy in a duo or group. but only for a couple places. outside of VoD or a dm event that is ravenloft style. the cleric is pretty much a somewhat weaker version of a typical cleric build. pretty specialized if you ask me. sounds fun, but defiantly specialized.

my concern would be someone abusing it in FoD. gathering a big group of skellies and ghosts and using them to harass passerby-ers or afk grinding.

Dont compare wizards with clerics. They are different things. You dont see any wizard players asking for a divine power type of spell in order to be "on par".

If turn undead is changed for evil clerics it will work exactly the same, however instead of destroying an undead if it is very low HD, the cleric will be able to control it. It will rarely work, as it rarely works for good aligned clerics.

[aaron22]

im not comparing the two in a greater since. i am comparing a specific application. that would have a very similar effect. a highly efficient minion that only lasts a brief amount of time. granted Simulacrum is a spell therefor effectively different and we speak of a turning feat. but the similarity lies in the overall use and usefulness. pointed out in that the spell can be useful many places whereas the turning feat would only be useful in certain and very specific circumstances. so inferior in all. but an undead minion has very beneficial aspects.