Lies and Mercy - Paladin Questions

[DM Dialectic]

I'm pretty clear on most of that, as I know my paladin won't be allowed to lie without repercussions. The only thing I was unsure about was what exactly counts as a lie. Deception covers a whole lot of actions after all.

I might be sending in an official request soon, but for the moment I think I just need some time to think it out for myself and make sure I understand the question I'm asking.

Please PM the DM Team if you have any further questions. We would be happy to help answer them.

[MopKnight]

Just bear in mind that while you don't tend to lie or deceive or anything similar to that, the DMs have always allowed plenty of room for alternative paladin approaches. My main character has always been a warlike, brutal paladin who gives the shirt off her back to keep people alive, but from whom you are not likely to receive mercy if she has to kill you.

However, her methods are quick, do not invoke unnecessary pain and are intended on ending battles swiftly and decisively. She also practices effective poverty. She's also fairly foul mouthed.

In other words, paladins can be complex like any other character. It always took a lot for a paladin to fall. Don't worry too much about it

[Maecius]

Historically speaking, the DMs only force paladins to fall if they request it or they're flat-out violating the lore of the class (summoning undead, murdering people for no reason, and otherwise acting like they're evil instead of good) and don't try to fix it after a friendly warning that they're way out of line with their class selection.

I can probably count on one hand the amount of paladins the DMs have actually forced to fall. We try not to tell people how to play their classes. But we do get involved when people are flat-out disrespecting the setting everyone else signed up to play in. As long as you're trying to be the best paladin you can be, the DMs are probably not going to nit-pick your RP.

Other players, I'm told, are sometimes less shy about it. But just about the only "right way" to play a paladin is to try to have your character be the best and most honorable person you feel he or she can be. And also, you know, to have faith in a deity.

[Boddynock]

I have seen this question numerous times (well close enough to it anyway) and the only thing I can always come up with is that it depends. As someone mentioned earlier in the thread, not all paladins are the same. A paladin of Ilmater versus a paladin of Mystra probably have different concerns and goals, as the goals and concerns of the respective faiths are different, and therefore will (probably) react differently to the same scenario.

My usual advice on this is to refer to the dogma of the faith and formulate guidelines based on that. If you have tried that and still come up empty (as you mentioned nothing in Mystra's dogma talks about the punishing of evil) then you must remember that paladins often serve the faith through a specific order that might have it's own specific goals that, while meant to advance the interests of the faith, are not exactly the same.

If you still come up empty handed, then consider writing your own doctrine and petitioning the local church and clergy of Mystra to sponsor a new knightly order. I'm sure that the DMs would be willing to assist with getting a doctrine that fits the faith AND there would be the possibility for you to create a great deal of RP with other players. Then you could have a local server lore supported doctrine on how YOUR Mystran order deals with evil-doers that you helped create, and with DM support from the onset there will be no question about breaking paladin codes, because everyone will be on the same page.

[Boddynock]

I'm pretty clear on most of that, as I know my paladin won't be allowed to lie without repercussions. The only thing I was unsure about was what exactly counts as a lie. Deception covers a whole lot of actions after all.

I might be sending in an official request soon, but for the moment I think I just need some time to think it out for myself and make sure I understand the question I'm asking.

To speak to your specific example, I would find it highly unlikely that a paladin of Mystra is forbidden the use of protective, yet still deceptive, illusory magic, like mirror image, invisibility, or displacement (particularly if they are using it to protect someone else).

[7threalm]

thats the only order that allows paladins to multiclass rogues- and its gnomes

one of those racial things

[Stonebar]

Associates
While she may adventure with characters of any good or neural alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.

We can't forget from the PHB 3.5

[7threalm]

in pnp 3.5 paladins have muticlass restrictions if i remember, so only certain orders allowed you to muticlass fighter/cleric/ etc.

those restrictions don't exist on the server, that why we have alot of 3 paladin dips, and rest something else, and they rp them as a paladin, that just how it has been in the past

[Xanfyrst]

Optimus Prime is to me the best depiction of a DnD paladin ever made. Go read up on that one.

[Hidennka]

Optimus Prime is to me the best depiction of a DnD paladin ever made. Go read up on that one.

And what would you know about -real- paladins?

'Optimal Pride' would be more fitting for the Sword Coast!

[Laughing Octopus]

In answer to the question about how to treat the wicked, I think it's important to remember that gods don't micromanage. Gods have things that need done, and things that shouldn't be done, with varying degrees of specification on how. If a god doesn't explicitly say "put arsonists in jail" then a paladin should have enough agency to decide how to solve the arson problem. Not all paladins of the same god will look at a problem the same way, and each of them will have their own personal experiences to inform their decisions. Granted they still gotta follow the code and the honor and all that, but that still leaves lots of wiggle room.

So I think you should think about how YOUR paladin would address problems when his holy book doesn't account.

[Stonebar]

A Paladin is above all a Paladin. A god has an effect on it's views, but their very nature of code and belief is set. In effect the god fits into the Paladin code, not the paladin fitting in to the god. That's one of the reason ALL Paladin are Lawful Good, and not matching their god's alignment.

[Israe]

Just curious, would a paladin spare an "Evil" race who surrenders/begs for their life, under grounds the "Evil" race can't have any evil actions pinned on them?

[kleomenes]

Just curious, would a paladin spare an "Evil" race who surrenders/begs for their life, under grounds the "Evil" race can't have any evil actions pinned on them?

All IMHO: I'd say so. You punish past actions not future potentialities, or the actions of others. Context does matter however. And aiding others to commit evil is also evil.

Controversial question though. Easier to answer for Harpers! There's even a quote on it there.

[Invoker]

A paladin's actions are based on values, not context (ie: feelings, external pressure, situational influence of any kind). They are highly evolved, far different from classic fighters and barbarians, conditioned to react to certain stimuli.

True paladins don't act on the spur of what happened, but take responsibility to shape what will happen, what "needs" to happen according to the values, the ideals they live by.

Example: Evil creature kills innocents. Evil creature wounds the paladin. Evil creature is defeated, but surrenders. The paladin will not kill the creature in retaliation: he will secure it, capture it and investigate the causes of what happened. After a fair trial, a decision will be taken. Should the creature end up dead in battle, or after the trial, the paladin will pray for its soul, just as he will do for the departed innocents.

Paladins giving in to revenge (think about a Paladin of Hoar, and how hard it is to walk that fine line), hatred or otherwise empowering their emotions to the point that they begin to hamper their ability to respond to situations according to their values, are one step away from falling, if not fallen already.

If one wants to play Judge Dredd or The Equalizer, then perhaps the paladin class isn't the most indicated.