Dire charge and battle howl: worth it?

[chad878262]

Not bad... You might consider lowering STR to 21 and getting CON up to 21. Drop Greater Resiliency in favor of Epic DR feat(s). Also remember you will get Barbarian bonus feats at level 10 and 20 so you have one pre-epic feat and one epic feat which won't show in the builder. Pretty sure Armor Specialization won't stack with Barbarian DR so drop that feat and get something else (extend rage II if nothing else, if you are only getting extend rage I there is a merchant in BG that sells an item granting that).

If you get STR 21/CON 21 there is a belt in Avernus (I think) that gives +3 STR/+3 CON to put you at 24 in each. This is important for a Barbarian because you can get Epic Rage, Thundering Rage and Epic Damage Resistance... Epic Rage and Thundering Rage both had the requirements dropped to STR 21 on BG.

[Hrafnar]

Awesome, thank you. Also, is improved power attack worth it? The -6 to AB seems to outweigh the extra dmg imho.

[chad878262]

Awesome, thank you. Also, is improved power attack worth it? The -6 to AB seems to outweigh the extra dmg imho.

Why you want FB 5 (which grants Enhanced Power Attack) if you don't get IPA? You will still hit with the -6, especially when raging. By the way, with PA, EPA makes you do -3 attack, +5 damage (+10 if wielding a weapon with both hands)... With IPA it's -6 +10 (+20 with two handed)... It is definitely worth it with the route you are going.

[aaron22]

besides what was said earlier, epic prowess is not as good as some other choices you could have in that. but yea 21/21 to str con is the SOP for barb building. the +3 belt is belt of growth and would come in handy and the price isnt out of hand at all.

IPA is best if paired with expose weakness. but is also useful when damage is getting eaten by DR's and just chewing away little by little isnt going to cut it. where less hits for more damage will win the day.

[chad878262]

besides what was said earlier, epic prowess is not as good as some other choices you could have in that. but yea 21/21 to str con is the SOP for barb building. the +3 belt is belt of growth and would come in handy and the price isnt out of hand at all.

IPA is best if paired with expose weakness. but is also useful when damage is getting eaten by DR's and just chewing away little by little isnt going to cut it. where less hits for more damage will win the day.

This totally reminded me Barbarian gets Evasion now...so yeah, you should be taking Epic Prowess/Expose Weakness if you can afford them (and this is another reason why Barbarian is now a serious contender to keep pure)... Having bonus epic feats at 24, 28 and 30 certainly helps with fitting in Epic Rage, Thunderous Rage, Epic DR, and Expose Weakness. They can get a lot of goodies, and really all FB 5 is giving you is +8 damage on your IPA... I decent amount, sure, but you give up a LOT to get FB 5. Without it you would not take Cleave or Great Cleave (generally speaking) so you give up 2 pre-epic feats as well as 2 epic feats (28 and 30) for 8 points of damage.

Also, to answer your next question, yes even without Enhanced PA, IPA is still worth it (-6 AB, +12 Damage is still a good trade for you).

You could go Barb 22/Fighter 8 which would give you Epic Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization and would somewhat mitigate the Feats loss. There is no penalty since you are building a Human. The only downside is you are married to a specific weapon in order to get the AB/Damage from Fighter feats. F8 get's you 5 feats, if we assume four are used for Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Specialization and then one of your final Barb feats will need to be Epic Weapon Specialization that still leaves 1 epic feat (vs 3 if you went Barb 30).

[aaron22]

*goes back to the drawing board muttering about how life was simple in 2nd ED*

evasion at barb 18 was a big improvement. i take it you are headed back again? try to see if you can pair the FB5 with EW and still get some of the goodies that you want in the rage line. if not barb 30 may be the best option. it is viable just not as much a potato masher as if you had EPA/IPA. plus great cleave is FUN!!!

[Hrafnar]

You could go Barb 22/Fighter 8 which would give you Epic Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization and would somewhat mitigate the Feats loss. There is no penalty since you are building a Human. The only downside is you are married to a specific weapon in order to get the AB/Damage from Fighter feats. F8 get's you 5 feats, if we assume four are used for Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Specialization and then one of your final Barb feats will need to be Epic Weapon Specialization that still leaves 1 epic feat (vs 3 if you went Barb 30).

I thought about this but I would like to avoid the weapon marriage for this character if possible. I'm trying to go with the flavor of the totally undisciplined warrior that doesn't have the patience for training. That being the case maybe pure barb is the way to go. I came up with this before you suggested that: http://nwn2db.com/build/?260948

But I could also go with this: http://nwn2db.com/build/?260952

I like this one because I can give her some charisma Couldn't squeeze Epic Prowess and Expose Weakness in there without losing DR and Fast Healing, in which case getting Con to 21 seems redundant. I could dump INT, WIS and CHA I suppose to free up two epic feats but it doesn't really fit the concept to min/max that much.

Edit: Changed both builds a bit to get EP and EW in there. I think I prefer the pure barb.

[chad878262]

DR is better than fast healing... Think of it this way, would you rather have extra DR against every attack or extra regen once per round? At some points you may take several hits in a round, in which the DR applies to all of them, much better to have regen on your cloak and/or vampiric weapon for regen. For this purpose I would only grab fast healing if you already have all the DR/ feats.

Aside from that I like the pure barbarian better, but either build will do and I think you are on the right track. It's more important which one you will have more fun with and connect to more.

[Hrafnar]

Okay I'll drop fast healing for DR II. Should the DR come before epic/thundering rage or after? I had originally envisioned FB for this character and it fits her persona but on the other hand I'm always drawn to pure classes and the build seems very tidy to me. I'll think about it a bit more before RCR though.

[Valefort]

Imo a bit of fast healing is better because you're not spending all your rounds fighting, not to mention sometimes you won't even get hit. DR is better in some situations but I think 2 epic DR and 1 fast healing beats 3 epic DR in most situations.

[chad878262]

Should the DR come before epic/thundering rage or after?

Personal preference I'd say. Survivability/defense always comes first for me nowadays, because I hate ending up in the fugue... However, if you are generally with a party and are supposed to be more of a damage dealer then it isn't like Barbarian doesn't already have decent DR and you may want the extra offense sooner. I don't think there is a right or wrong answer here...Unless you're solo, then I would go DR first.

Imo a bit of fast healing is better because you're not spending all your rounds fighting, not to mention sometimes you won't even get hit. DR is better in some situations but I think 2 epic DR and 1 fast healing beats 3 epic DR in most situations.
Imo a bit of fast healing is better because you're not spending all your rounds fighting, not to mention sometimes you won't even get hit. DR is better in some situations but I think 2 epic DR and 1 fast healing beats 3 epic DR in most situations.

Valefort makes a fair point... I still like DR better because Regen can come from a cloak and a weapon, while your DR doesn't stack with DR from armor for instance. However, different strokes for different folks. I don't think there's necessarily a wrong answer as both are really nice feats to take.

[Hrafnar]

I think the only way I'm making room for at least 2 DR and 1 FH is if I drop epic prowess and/or expose weakness. For instance on the Barb/FB build I've only managed to get in one DR feat. The upshot between the two builds seems to be the FB multi has exchanged survivability for more dmg output and two different types of rage. I'm not sure which is better really. I think I would rather drop expose weakness and pick up more DR at least on the FB build. Sure would be nice to get greater resiliency in there as well.

[chad878262]

I think the only way I'm making room for at least 2 DR and 1 FH is if I drop epic prowess and/or expose weakness. For instance on the Barb/FB build I've only managed to get in one DR feat. The upshot between the two builds seems to be the FB multi has exchanged survivability for more dmg output and two different types of rage. I'm not sure which is better really. I think I would rather drop expose weakness and pick up more DR at least on the FB build. Sure would be nice to get greater resiliency in there as well.

You may want to reconsider... Expose Weakness will help your 4th, 5th and 6th attacks hit quite a bit more often... more hits will result in more damage...you know, if you're trying to do more damage...

[Hrafnar]

Hehe okay. Never used it before, can you tell?

[chad878262]

It's bugged so it auto hits and instead of being a full round action it just uses your first attack (depending on when you activate it), but what's important for you is when it REALLY hits it applies bleed damage of dexterity modifier for 5 rounds and (more importantly) -3 to AC, which stacks... So if you hit with your EW each round the enemy will have -15 AC... So if normally you would hit with attack 1, 2 and 3 you should theoretically land all 6 attacks (since attack 6 now has the same effective AB of attack 3 due to the stacking AC penalty after 5 rounds). Really nice for boss battles, since you know, most other battles shouldn't generally last 5 rounds!