Autostill + Eldritch Knight

[chad878262]

W10/EK10/PM10 has a BAB of 20 and CL29, so 4 APR 5% greater dispel...nothing wrong with CL, but not very good on the whole 'gish' thing since it misses 5 APR by one... You could probably improve it by going W7/EK10/PM10/DS3 which get's you to BAB 21 and CL28, 4 lower BAB then the W10/EK10/DS10 build and same CL, so it has more defense if dispelled, but lower BAB.

I think Chambo's point was essentially that Arcane Gishes have to make some very difficult choices between CL and BAB, among other things. Meanwhile, Divine Gishes only real question they have to ask is if they grab Rogue for Evasion and BG or Cleric for EDM or just one or the other so they retain the CL. They do not have to worry about BAB at all since (especially if they take STR domain and/or extend spell) since they can cast Divine Power enough times to pretty much always retain BAB 30.

End of the day, both arguments have merit... On the one side M3ntalist indicates Arcane Gishes are 'fine' and that seems to be fairly accurate. On the other, they have fewer options then they did BEFORE the dispel fix which is a shame. You CAN still build an arcane gish that will ROFLMAO-face stomp most of the server content, as you can with anything so I suppose it just comes down to if you feel Arcane gishes need any help. I fall on the side of trying to help them because I don't think it will cause the existing 'top tier' arcane builds to be outrageously pumped up, they still won't compete because of breach, lower BAB, etc. but it will potentially allow for a few more building options that don't gimp your build to the point of deciding between BAB going too low or CL going too low. I think it really boils down to that, bumping up arcane gishes and gish types vs. not. Do you feel any bump will make certain arcane builds OP? If not what's the harm in raising up some so different build options become a bit more viable? On the other hand do you feel they are already plenty viable? If so, what's the point in expending resources to improve them?

Fun stuff.

[chad878262]

http://nwn2db.com/build/?212634

CL30, BAB23. With all the buffs should be fine. Again, I don't think there is an issue with building a capable gish. To me it is about having some options to mix in different classes and still be able to have decent CL. The issue (of course) is helping out the 'RP' builds without essentially making it so you can have a CL30 gish with EDM/DS/EW, etc...

Just in case math is required... The AB is 23 +9 (STR w/ bulls) +5 (GMW) +4 (Gr. Heroism) = 41, 35 with IPA. This can be increased by 2 at the cost of two CL (BAB25, CL28 for 10/10/10). I played this build up to ~20 last summer and it did well, but wasn't the baddest build around. Can get solid AC though alongside mirror images (the one spell that divine gishes probably wish they had, and can with an inexpensive wand). The AB as you can guess is the main issue, because without IPA it just doesn't do a lot of damage, but with IPA the AB suffers. Curse of impending blades/mass curse of impending blades can help at times, but not enough spells to sustain that. Basically I had to switch between turning PA/IPA off and using a shield when facing enemies with higher AC, and just outlast them. Not a fast way to play in some cases, but it is very survivable. You can of course use short term buffs like War Cry, Haste or Tensers to improve AB as well, which is often what I did... At two minutes a cast, I usually only had one up at a time in order to not need to rest every 10 minutes.

[BigJ]

Heh, this went off track a little.

Autostill - Can we get the spellcraft requirement removed? Having to take 3 epic feats in the late 20's bars a lot of options.

Eldritch Knight - Gishes are playable, no question, just like I said in another thread. However its such a plain class, and a part warrior class with d6hp? I just wish it had a little more flavour to it. (like Daggerspell, PM, etc).

On personal note EK was my only choice, opposed school is necromancy so no PM (and there's like, loads of them down here ). Evil, so no DSM. Dragonslayer? I have to work chasing dragons into my RP to build a good Gish? Or are builds just about mechanics now?

Meh, I know I would kill things slower than my warlock, let alone the divine builds with their built in autostill and higher bab / hp. I knew arcane blasters would toast things better with their high cl / save do or die spells.

I just wish I had a little more choice and flavour with the EK, not raw power just choices to customise, rather than being forced to pick a Palemaster, or Dragonslayer, or non-evil (Daggerspell). To reverse the aspect, a 'good' gish char can only be a dragonslayer or knife wielder.

I dont see those kind of choices forced on the other class types.

BigJ

Ps. And man the buffing, the constant buffing. Can we get a buffmaster feat to speed that up?

[chad878262]

W16/EK10/F4. BAB 22, CL 29, no Dragon Slayer, no dagger requirement (not as strong as DS in most respects, but gains more feats and doesn't have to take Dodge, certainly viable).

AutoStill requirements reduced request noted. will flag in QC.

[Tantive]

Still spell is a difficult skill in metamagics, raises difficulty quite allot. Spellcraft is a rather appropriate requirement thematicly.

[chad878262]

Still spell is a difficult skill in metamagics, raises difficulty quite allot. Spellcraft is a rather appropriate requirement thematicly.

Yet a Bladesinger (if implemented) get's it essentially for free at level 10, which might be before even reaching epics...

Point being reducing the requirement so it doesn't require 27 spellcraft may not be an issue, I've posted it for discussion... Perhaps the requirement get's lowered to require Spellcraft of 20, the still spell feat and character level 21, for example. Not saying that will happen, or any change will happen...Only that it's worth discussing.

[Tantive]

*snip*
Yet a Bladesinger (if implemented) get's it essentially for free at level 10, which might be before even reaching epics...

Still spell and autostill ≠ Removed arcane spell failure for light armor. As evidenced with the loss of the ability putting on normal chain armor. And what do you mean level 10? I see difficulties there, as you'll be in for a long haul playing in cloth, or padded armor with -5 spellfailure at best for beginning players. I'de segway back to my thread if we're approaching this further.

[mrm3ntalist]

And what do you mean level 10? I see difficulties there, as you'll be in for a long haul playing in cloth, or padded armor with -5 spellfailure at best for beginning players. I'de segway back to my thread if we're approaching this further.

Or you can get the still metamagic and cast spells in whatever armor you like.

[Tantive]

One spellslot higher, and no extend for a gish build? Maybe viable for three spells. IMA, IMW and Spiderskin. But then again, auto still made builds get to use shields.

[mrm3ntalist]

One spellslot higher, and no extend for a gish build? Maybe viable for three spells.

What about the rest rest? Bulls, cats, mirrors, Gr. Heroism etc? Cant you cast those?

IMA, IWA and Spiderskin. But then again, auto still made builds get to use shields.

[chad878262]

But BladeSinger gets free dodge AC for not using a shield or any more than light armor... And if you really want you can cast your extended buffs, then put on your armor and use still spells for your short term buffs as needed.

If this needs to continue, recommend it do so in the BladeSinger topic, rather than this one.

BigJ: As I said previously, to your question specific to Auto Still requirements, they are being reviewed... Sorry for derailing your thread (again).

[Tantive]

Lets see now.

Bulls, Cats, mirrors is second circle spell.
Improved mage armor, greater magic weapon, Keen, Spiderskin, Displacement, Heroism are third circle spells.
Third Circle is also has a host of iconic spells like fireball, lightning etc.
Orb Spells, Stoneskin is Fourth Circle
Greater heroism, Tensers, Isaacs, Greater stoneskin is sixth circle.

Silent spell bumps them all up one circle.

Earlier levels, the dispels for a wizard class hurt you hard. And best need to have multiple of the same buffs prepared beforehand. This is quite different for a sorceror obviously, as they have many backups. And its not like they are a cleric with self heals or extend self buffing while wearing full plate.

Basicly, Silent spell is only worthwhile to use with long running buffs, that can be removed midbattle due to dispells or length of playing and deep in dungeons with less chances for rest. Or DM events for that matter. And need a couple duplicates for the loss of them during your play. Silent spell and extend both use the same increase of + 1 circle. But its hard choosing a silent 6 or 60 second/level over extend 60seconds/level. You're more likely to see equipment swappings with each rest, and use silent for 10m/ level or 1hour/ level.

For wizard based arcane gishes, I'de keep in mind how many spell slots and bonus spells they eventually receive for early levels. Sorceror has it easier in that manner for the road to autostill.

Addendum, Practised spellcaster will be an early pick if you are leveling from the start.

[Steve]

http://nwn2db.com/build/?260969

W 10 / EK 10 / DS 10 won't kill quickly, but it won't be killed off either. It has a 10% of being dispelled. That probably will only occur with upper tier bosses and in PvP.

So essentially the argument is that 10% "failure" is too much?!? What do people think is a fair percentage of failure...and in a game where your toon never "really" dies?!?

[Steve]

Okay, I have a question: do people that play gishes actually cast spells when they are in combat? My assumption is a gish simply buffs to high heaven and then blows through their enemies...but maybe others have mastered some spell slinging as well, and thus NEED Autostill?!?

[chad878262]

Depends on the level Steve. When I played mine last summer it was more like "buff to high heaven and slowly whittle down your foes" damage is a bit of a weak point for arcane gishes... If you get a big group of enemies on you greater fireburst helps. With my current fighter/mage/thief style Drow I make good use of cloud of bewilderment, but he doesn't wear armor so doesn't need still spell. I'm sure some do play the abjurer/evocation style battle mage, but that's obvious not the most efficient and is done much better as a simple armored blaster style sorcerer.