How many NPC minions are we allowed to RP for these days?

[Steve]

Myself, I sometimes write up some Forum RP with NPC interactions, such that I forward player-driven storylines. An example is here, where I've given voice to an old man on the streets of Baldur's Gate.

Though I realize Players are not to speak for NPCs, the rule is actually this:

In addition, Players are not to control or speak for or direct actions of other NPCs, especially such NPCs that do not exist in this NWN2 game. Minor instances of NPC interactions may be used, such as and for example: "The merchant said they would spread the rumor I was seeking a special item."

Examples of either of the above will lead to serious consequences for your PC, and possibly a temporary ban of your Player account.

But my question is: how many minions are we allowed to RP for, as in, the case where a faction or guild or church is "supposed" to have minions/underlings/whatever, and to what extend can those NPCs be RP'd—or used—to support the PC's RP, through their actions? It used to be none, actually, in my time as DM. But it would appear to me that the "rules" have been relaxed for sake of a story, and I would like to know how far myself, I can go.

If you want concrete examples I've seen which bring me to this question, then let me know, and I will PM the DMs.

Thank you.

[DM Arkanis]

Hey there - I think the key is in the "control or speak for" part of the rule.

"I was in talking to Maltz and he told me 45gp was the price of the potion." I would say is acceptable.
"I was in talking to Maltz who told me that for every person I send to him to buy potions, he'll give me 10%" I would say is metagaming the NPC, i.e. speaking for Maltz unless this was part of a DM authorized RP.

If in your bio/background you talk about your mother, as long as you don't need to have your mother as an NPC toon for others to interact with, I'd say fill your boots with whatever you want in a back story.
I'd also avoid filling my back story with all of the known-heroes of the land though unless it was authorized first though.
I would even go so far as to say that if you wanted to say you'd spoken to or interacted with certain NPC's, even famous ones, for the sake of RP that as long as you don't have to PROVE that you interacted with them or require them to show up to prove that they know you, that you'd probably be all right. I know a few characters who like to talk/brag as part of their character, and making a rule that says you always have to tell the truth would really shut down a lot of RP... You can say, "Let's go talk to Captain Norton to answer the question" but you can't say, "I spoke with Captain Norton and he told me...." unless he actually spoke to you. If, for the sake of RP, you need to convince/cajole or otherwise lie to other characters then make generic statements, rather than specific ones, unless you have DM permission. "Yeah, I overhead one of the Fist saying...." is a better way to do that than singling out an NPC.

My take on the need for the rule was so that characters didn't put the DM staff in a tough spot when invoking knowledge of/friendship with either game NPC's or well known FR NPC's.

So, more to your point, if you belong to an organization (like a church) that is known to have dozens if not hundreds of nameless followers, for the sake of a story your character could definitely talk to/liaise with many of them as long as the don't need to be a part of your active game.

I know of players who have PMed the DM team as well if there is something in their character's story that needs NPC interaction, either through a letter written to the NPC, or for bigger events, having a DM control the NPC and speak to the character IC and in game. This would be the best course of action in my opinion, if you have any concerns about whether or not your character is speaking for an NPC or not.

Old Ark

Myself, I sometimes write up some Forum RP with NPC interactions, such that I forward player-driven storylines. An example is here, where I've given voice to an old man on the streets of Baldur's Gate.

Though I realize Players are not to speak for NPCs, the rule is actually this:

In addition, Players are not to control or speak for or direct actions of other NPCs, especially such NPCs that do not exist in this NWN2 game. Minor instances of NPC interactions may be used, such as and for example: "The merchant said they would spread the rumor I was seeking a special item."

Examples of either of the above will lead to serious consequences for your PC, and possibly a temporary ban of your Player account.

But my question is: how many minions are we allowed to RP for, as in, the case where a faction or guild or church is "supposed" to have minions/underlings/whatever, and to what extend can those NPCs be RP'd—or used—to support the PC's RP, through their actions? It used to be none, actually, in my time as DM. But it would appear to me that the "rules" have been relaxed for sake of a story, and I would like to know how far myself, I can go.

If you want concrete examples I've seen which bring me to this question, then let me know, and I will PM the DMs.

Thank you.

[Steve]

Cheers for the response, Ark.

I understand what you are saying and I agree with it, though it gets slippery there, at times, in terms of "relationship(s)," and how that determines value.

Let me explain: Say I want my faction to appear bigger than it really is—has only 2 PCs, but I RP and post that there are NPC members within, that heed my Characters every command. In this way, I as a Player have not spoken in actual words for these NPCs, but I have written that they a) exist when maybe IG they do not , b) do what I—the Player—want them to do to satisfy my IC needs for my PC, c) imply that my PC has actual control over the NPCs under him.

This is, essentially, an issue of appearances, in the grand form.

You willing to address those ABCs?!?

[Ariella]

Speaking from recent experience with the Halls npc's and the Radiant Heart npc's, You need to have them approved by the staff. For example the Radiant Heart has had 15 Paladins/Clergy and something like 40 men at arms approved from back in its founding. For the Halls we recently have had 12 approved, An easy way to do it is just write up a quick bio for the NPC then forward it to the DM team. Or get DM's involved in recruitment plots to have them join your faction.

Example of a quick Bio we used.

Name: Sophia
Race: Human
Class: Cleric/Bardess
Level: 16
Position: Priestess of Lliira
Brief Bio: Who would think that this tiny girl with almost childish wonder in her eyes is one of the priestess of Halls of Inner light. Following the rumors of Gate’s dire state after the war with undead this young priestess decided to leave the Palace of Holy Festivals in selgaunt and make her name by bringing joy to the suffering people of Sword Coast. Her bubbly and kind personality makes her favorite among most of the folks who enter the temple, not to the mention this strange aura of accessibility she seems to radiate. Although some of the other residents of the temple are sometimes not so thrilled about Sophia, with the constant pranks she plays on them, to make the visitors or other members laugh. You never know if you are the one hiding behind the pillar trying stifle a laugh or the one having all your robes switched for a see through, scarf, dancer outfit. Sophia can usually be seen walking through the city, gifting handfuls of gold to street artists or slipping out during the night into various inns in Baldur’s Gate, pulling whole groups of strangers with her and throwing spontaneous parties for them or anyone who happens to hear all the merriment in passing. It’s often wonder how she still manages to bring in coin for the Halls with her spending it left and right. Frequently less often seen though probably not less often performing, she takes her time to play with children in less wealthy districts of Gate or talking with farmers or workers, trying to cheer up their day with many a joke or kind word. Although she never leaves her lute far from her reach and pass an opportunity to play a lighthearted song.

[DM Arkanis]

Right. There are two ways to play this:

1. "The Wizard of Oz Continuum" You RP you have many dozens of minions at your command in various locations when in fact, there is you and the guy who polishes your armor. There is nothing wrong with RP that makes you look larger than life AS LONG as through RP it can be checked (i.e. Sense Motive, Bluff, Intimidate, INT check, etc.) where, if this isn't the case the character doing the checking is told that things might not be as grand as you had elaborated, or;
2. "Ding dong! Housekeeping!" Your Guildhall/Keep/Fortress of Solitude/Damp Cave/Room in your parents basement has "implied' NPC's such as blacksmiths, librarians, cooks, stable boys, etc - basic housekeepers. This could also "imply" some form of household guards although nothing grand unless your area has NPC guards added to the map. I know for RP purposes some of the holy knight orders RP the players "commanding" troops that no one ever sees, and these troops are taken into consideration for DM run events, but are otherwise too engaged in training and the like to be available for day to day RPing.

So, I would say it is perfectly healthy RP if you want to imply that you have a valet who takes care of you behind the scenes, or a cook who makes wonderful blueberry muffins. I would stay away from RP that talks about owning slaves unless the situation warrants (i.e. within the Thayan Enclave) or that there is any law-breaking going on, (i.e. "I have my minions working on a tunnel underneath the Duchal Palace as we speak!" <maniacal laughter>) and in either scenario, I would expect SOME RP around it - you are a poor beggar in rags on the street who claims to have a vast household staff run by your viceroy might require a significant Bluff roll for anyone to believe you, but as an adventuring type, with coin, well dressed, armed and armored, saying you have some form of (unseen) staff would be a normal predilection for your character. If you want to make more grand statements, IMHO get in game allies of your character to back you up. "The buffet at your manor last night was truly exquisite. Do you have a personal florist who does arrangements for you? Could you give me his name?" type of thing could buffer up your characters credibility with regards to unseen minions.

The slippery slope comes in to play though if you get some more characters to join your cause and you want to take your faction out to stretch its legs so to speak. If you've been RPing that you have an army of undead followers (for example) up until this point it really didn't matter or not if you did. Without sufficient RP (gold, and I would say DM team buy-in) before hand, you'd be stuck trying to explain where the army was when the dozen or so goody-goody characters charge towards you, swords drawn.

If at any time you'd think some underling NPC that you have been giving orders to in the past needs to become solid, then you'd need to provide the DMs with a solid RP reason (not just, "I've been saying for months that I had a dragon in the basement") I believe part of the spirit of the rule around controlling and speaking for NPC's has to do with players end-rounding things by laying rumours about that DM's end up being boxed in by and forced to RP them.

So, if you're thinking that there is never going to be a possibility of your minions ever taking form I'd say fill your boots with good RP around their stories.

If you are thinking about building things up with rumours or stories first, and somewhere down the road you'd really like to have your faction have NPC's in game, then I would send a PM to the DM team before you start and get permission to go down that road before you do anything.

My take on it anyhow.

Ark

Cheers for the response, Ark.

I understand what you are saying and I agree with it, though it gets slippery there, at times, in terms of "relationship(s)," and how that determines value.

Let me explain: Say I want my faction to appear bigger than it really is—has only 2 PCs, but I RP and post that there are NPC members within, that heed my Characters every command. In this way, I as a Player have not spoken in actual words for these NPCs, but I have written that they a) exist when maybe IG they do not , b) do what I—the Player—want them to do to satisfy my IC needs for my PC, c) imply that my PC has actual control over the NPCs under him.

This is, essentially, an issue of appearances, in the grand form.

You willing to address those ABCs?!?

[DM Arkanis]

Perfect - this is what I was going for.

Ark

Speaking from recent experience with the Halls npc's and the Radiant Heart npc's, You need to have them approved by the staff. For example the Radiant Heart has had 15 Paladins/Clergy and something like 40 men at arms approved from back in its founding. For the Halls we recently have had 12 approved, An easy way to do it is just write up a quick bio for the NPC then forward it to the DM team. Or get DM's involved in recruitment plots to have them join your faction.

Example of a quick Bio we used.

Name: Sophia
Race: Human
Class: Cleric/Bardess
Level: 16
Position: Priestess of Lliira
Brief Bio: Who would think that this tiny girl with almost childish wonder in her eyes is one of the priestess of Halls of Inner light. Following the rumors of Gate’s dire state after the war with undead this young priestess decided to leave the Palace of Holy Festivals in selgaunt and make her name by bringing joy to the suffering people of Sword Coast. Her bubbly and kind personality makes her favorite among most of the folks who enter the temple, not to the mention this strange aura of accessibility she seems to radiate. Although some of the other residents of the temple are sometimes not so thrilled about Sophia, with the constant pranks she plays on them, to make the visitors or other members laugh. You never know if you are the one hiding behind the pillar trying stifle a laugh or the one having all your robes switched for a see through, scarf, dancer outfit. Sophia can usually be seen walking through the city, gifting handfuls of gold to street artists or slipping out during the night into various inns in Baldur’s Gate, pulling whole groups of strangers with her and throwing spontaneous parties for them or anyone who happens to hear all the merriment in passing. It’s often wonder how she still manages to bring in coin for the Halls with her spending it left and right. Frequently less often seen though probably not less often performing, she takes her time to play with children in less wealthy districts of Gate or talking with farmers or workers, trying to cheer up their day with many a joke or kind word. Although she never leaves her lute far from her reach and pass an opportunity to play a lighthearted song.

[Steve]

I can work with this, thanks!

[Maecius]

Really the only universal response to this question is to run your idea past the DM team. If they think what you're trying to do is out of bounds, they'll let you know.

NPC use is always tricky. Having a waiter wait on you at a tavern might not be such an issue, but having "the guards" (when they are not being actively controlled by a DM) take hold of another PC can be an issue.

Best bet is to just check in with the DMs to make sure you're in the clear with whatever you're wanting to do. Otherwise you risk having your RP retconned for violating the "No Godmodding NPCs" server rule.

[thids]

I have alway