Ninja(phantom) Vs Rogue

[Mallore]

What rouge needs is a level 20 ability. No one takes the class to 20 because its a dead level, and sadly a lot of rogue like PRC's are 5 (guild theif) or 10's SD and assassin.

Many classes get a cool ability at level 20 and rogue is one of the few base classes on this server that do not.

As we all know, most only go to rogue in 19 because of the dead level. add a 20th level ability might make things interesting.


Over all on our server rogue is often used as a dip class to get access to a feat or open another prc. There are little to no builds left on this server that are rogues beyond level 3 (not saying they are not possible, just they are not happening) So while we can see screen shot of total rogue levels on the server, the vast majority are in dips.

It is rare to see a rogue base past 10, rarer past 16, and not heard of past 19 compared to all other base classes on the server. (these are not absolute statements, for the trolls out there)

A unique rogue ability at level 20 would be well deserved and believe a good conversation.

I personally would love to see a feat that shaves a second off the Stealth Cool down. My ultimate dream would be per ten levels. this would make rogue inticing at 10, 20 and 30! this would be reflective to of lore/rp/and the class in the books. As there are a number of feats in 3.5 books that allow Rogues to make hide checks after x. Sometimes x is after a successful sneak attack, or after a certian skill. As there is no Coool Down on stealth in paper and pen. Some feats lets rogues do things on skill checks and hide is a skill check.

I imagine we would not want to see the Stealth Cooldown auto reset on a successful SA =P.

There are other cool idea's to be had. though like many of the classes out there with level 20 abilities, this should be unique.. in some way.

[7threalm]

err its 10 attack per round +1 haste

[7threalm]

well im shooting for more the pvp side of things, i think the phantom has rogue beat on that. I agree rogue is more balanced pve wise, but phantom would be more cost effective.

with ptwf
10 attacks so thats 4 attacks that hit with sneak (17d6x 4) = 408 roughly
instant invis after the 4 sneaks hit (no wand animation)
10 attacks again, 4 hit (17d6x 4) 408 roughly

24 uses of ki step

if they hit

8 APR = 3 sneak attacks. You need 10APR to get a 4th sneak attack. There are 3 flurries in a round so you divide by 3 and round up (so 7-9 apr is 3 sneak attacks, 10-12 is 4).

Then we can take it a step further if we wanna go with feinter

with ptwf

open with a feint 4 sneak attacks or more ) 408 roughly
trigger invis 4 more sneak attack 408 roughly
trigger hips 4 more attacks 408 roughly

repeat if needed

so you can get roughly 1000-1200 dmg in 3 rounds (tested in jegs)

i tested with jegs and it was close to this.

now lets take it up another level
umd -cast tensor bab jumps up to 30
umd - greater heroism

44 ish ab - not sure what is was

[chad878262]

umd -cast tensor bab jumps up to 30

Tensers increases AB, not BAB and is subject to the +20 cap. So if you're BAB is 22 Tensers grants +8 AB, +4 EB +4 G. Heroism would be +16 total so if your Dex is +10 you have 6 wasted attack bonus.

[Blackman D]

What rouge needs is a level 20 ability. No one takes the class to 20 because its a dead level, and sadly a lot of rogue like PRC's are 5 (guild theif) or 10's SD and assassin.

except guild thief is pointless after 4 and so is assassin after 9, 21/9 rogue assassin is a fairly decent split and can end up with a lot of SA dice since the last dice on assassin is at 9 and rogue gets another at 21 (21/9 assassin is generally good with any sneak class)

GT isnt that strong of an argument since its only 5 levels, same as IB which is also good, except IB is actually worth getting all 5 but both can be mixed to make good builds however they are still only 1/6th of your total level making them very versatile

another thing people tend to forget is that rogue does indeed not have a lvl 20 special perk... because theirs starts at 10! with rogue only feats, reason why people stop at 19 if they do is because thats a bonus feat level... so 10, 13, 16 and 19 means they have 4 rogue feats

you can argue that you can get some of the better ones without rogue sure, but you are also probably losing the SA damage in doing so as well

[chad878262]

What rouge needs is a level 20 ability. No one takes the class to 20 because its a dead level, and sadly a lot of rogue like PRC's are 5 (guild theif) or 10's SD and assassin.

except guild thief is pointless after 4 and so is assassin after 9, 21/9 rogue assassin is a fairly decent split and can end up with a lot of SA dice since the last dice on assassin is at 9 and rogue gets another at 21 (21/9 assassin is generally good with any sneak class)

GT isnt that strong of an argument since its only 5 levels, same as IB which is also good, except IB is actually worth getting all 5 but both can be mixed to make good builds however they are still only 1/6th of your total level making them very versatile

another thing people tend to forget is that rogue does indeed not have a lvl 20 special perk... because theirs starts at 10! with rogue only feats, reason why people stop at 19 if they do is because thats a bonus feat level... so 10, 13, 16 and 19 means they have 4 rogue feats

you can argue that you can get some of the better ones without rogue sure, but you are also probably losing the SA damage in doing so as well

BMD brings up some additional points here that shows where Rogue's shine. You can make so many different builds with them. Want to hit 12 APR? I can think of half dozen different builds either using 14 High BAB levels or 11 Monk levels to hit that... Why is that important? Well, with haste you hit 13 APR which gives you 5 attacks in your first flurry (thus 5 sneak attacks). In addition, from the monk perspective Greater Flurry is a big deal because all of your main hand attacks happen first. Thus with your Phantom having applied haste you would have 4 Sneak attacks and they would be at AB, AB, -5, -10. Without Haste they would be AB, -5, -10, -15... With 11 levels of Monk and Haste you have AB, AB, AB, AB, -5 and without haste you have AB, AB, AB, -5 because Greater Flurry gives +2 attacks to your main hand at your highest attack bonus.

So again, comparing a R27/SD3 to a P27/SD3 (which really should be P25/SD5) is really not a 'fair' comparison. Rogue is awesome because it gets a lot of great stuff early and can afford (and really SHOULD) mix 2 or 3 other classes/PRC's in every build. The Rogue class is perhaps the most versatile on the server, offering really nice stuff for any melee when taken as a dip, but also offering some good stuff for heavy investment of between 10-19 levels. There are builds with Sneak Attack totals ranging from 5d6 up to 17d6 or even higher because of the fact that in many cases, going all the way up to 17d6 is not the best way to build your character. If you want a max sneak dice PC that is totally fine, but that's just what it will be and it is going to suffer in other areas. Sometimes ~8-14 Sneak dice are better because you give up those sneak dice for other benefits, be it spells, AC, AB, Saves, APR or whatever.

[Mallore]

Well Chad you kinda hit the point I am making at least

Rogue is awesome because it gets a lot of great stuff early and can afford (and really SHOULD) mix 2 or 3 other classes/PRC's in every build.

It is a great class to mix with others but the fact that you should mix the class is the issue im pointing out. What if you only want to mix with one other prc? or just go pure? thus why the weakness in the lack of a level 20 benefit that everyone else got. If we didnt have say Level 20 benefit on Rangers would we see a lot less ranger 21? Maybe, maybe not.

because rogue is one of the few classes with out a level 20 benefit it is my belief and even supported by your statement we do not see R20 on builds.

What new builds will we get if we added one?


As for ninja... yeah i think the rogue is just better even though the ninja gets a few more mechanical benefits.. it just doesnt feel like it belongs here. In my view.

[Mallore]

another thing people tend to forget is that rogue does indeed not have a lvl 20 special perk... because theirs starts at 10! with rogue only feats, reason why people stop at 19 if they do is because thats a bonus feat level... so 10, 13, 16 and 19 means they have 4 rogue feats

It is more like 3 feats as every class basically has a level 10 ability, and the rogue bonus feat chosen at 10 is equivalent to that special ability. We are also missing from this server a few of the more interesting special rogue talents. Fighters also have feat progression. and the additions made to base classes sense then have long over shadowed a feat every three levels. If we where to look at all the base classes side by side.

Though as the class lacks a level 20 ability like so many others. I do stress that we might see some new interesting builds if we where to do so =)


Honestly do you think adding a level 20 perk like we have done for so many other classes would unbalance this base class?

[mrm3ntalist]

Honestly do you think adding a level 20 perk like we have done for so many other classes would unbalance this base class?

Rogues lack nothing currently. The gear issue they had we changed it and increased their survivability.

Personally speaking, i dont think rogues need anything else.

Every class has dead levels. That doesnt mean that we are going to give something for every class at every level.

[thids]

Rogues never had a gear issue.

[mrm3ntalist]

Rogues never had a gear issue.

+1

Thank you

[chad878262]

What if you only want to mix with one other prc? or just go pure? thus why the weakness in the lack of a level 20 benefit that everyone else got. If we didnt have say Level 20 benefit on Rangers would we see a lot less ranger 21? Maybe, maybe not.

BMD pointed out that R21/A9 is a perfectly viable build. I get's a metric ton of skill points, and a solid amount of sneak attack dice (16d6) and with a decent INT is going to have a solid save or paralyzed (dead) from Assassin. I don't see the lack of a level 20 benefit as a weakness because (as BMD stated) they received 4 feats from levels 10-19, a few of them can ONLY be obtained by taking them at 10, 13, 16 or 19 rogue. Rangers do not get a benefit at 20, it's at 21 and honestly I see THAT as the weakness. Their multi-classing is severely limited by the dispel fix (need at least CL28 and R22/A8 is only CL26 so can't rely on spells much) as well as the fact that level 21 bring free one shot or PTWF as well as access to Bane of Enemies. However, even with this fact you still see people that take Ranger only to level 6, 9 or 11 in certain builds that mix with things like Tempest, Fighter or Rogue. Frankly a Ranger11/R10/A9 might be just as good as a R22/A8 since at that point you really are only using spells as a neat party trick and are focusing on having 10d6 SA dice (and epic precision) which is better than the situational 2d6 from bane of enemies... The point is that when talking about building characters in 3.x getting abilities late is not necessarily a strength... If you think about it Bane of Enemies is essentially the same as a Rogue at level 3 (2d6 extra damage out of stealth vs. 2d6 damage only against specific enemies). The PTWF deal is neat because Ranger is really the only class that can be a Strength based PTWF character... Accept you also need at least some DEX (16 for MBP, 14 now with Mithral Chain Mail) and WIS for spells, and CON (they only get d8 HP vs. d10 or d12 for other melee heavy classes)... Really they can dump CHA, but they need Hide, MS, Spot, Survival so if they dump INT they are going to miss out on any additional RP or other skills that could benefit them. I would want my Ranger to also have listen (it's tougher to pump MS than it is Hide), Search and cross class for 10 Tumble and 11 UMD... So really a Ranger wants to have 14 DEX, 14 WIS, 12-14 CON and 10-14 INT...Not exactly going to end up with 30 STR. This thread isn't about Rangers, but the point is that what a Rogue gets for 19 levels is certainly comparable to what a Ranger gets for 21. The difference is that the Rogue is much more versatile by being allowed (not forced) to take those other classes / PRC's whereas a Ranger either wants to go 11 levels or less or needs to go AT LEAST 21 levels, and at that point, unless going R22/A8 really doesn't want to take more than 4-6 non-caster progression levels. So could maybe go R24/CS6 or R25/SD5, but that's about it. There are quite a few PC's with 19 Rogue levels...Is that such a huge difference from 21 Ranger levels? The reason you see Rangers 'pure' has nothing to do with anything other than the fact that it is a caster class and you get epic bonus feats for staying pure. Rogue's don't need all that many epic bonus feats (though they are nice) and get more from mixing Assassin or SD at a minimum. Honestly I don't feel this is a Rogue issue so much as a 'non-caster' issue. Sure, there are a few classes like Monk or Phantom that really benefit from staying mostly pure (both still would tend toward grabbing SD5 for HiPS and Epic Dodge) but Fighter, generally not more than 12 levels some go to 14 or 18, but that is infinitely rare. With the Barbarian changes there is more reason to stay close to or fully pure, but there is still a lot of reasons to go Barbarian/Fighter/FB or Barbarian/Ranger/Rogue as a couple of examples. Rogue is not unique in it's lack of a 20/21st level feat, it just get's it at 19 instead. With regard to Rangers being able to take BoE at 21, rogues get to take Epic precision (so now they do ~5d6 vs. crit immune and 10d6 to everyone else while ranger gets 2d6 against ~5-7 enemies)... In my opinion it is a STRENGTH of the rogue class that they are not REQUIRED to invest 21 levels to grab Epic Precision... It is a WEAKNESS of the Ranger class they MUST invest 21 levels for Bane of Enemies.

because rogue is one of the few classes with out a level 20 benefit it is my belief and even supported by your statement we do not see R20 on builds.

Can you explain this a bit? What does Bard get at level 20? How about Fighter? Wizard? Sorcerer? Of all the base classes I would say less than half get some super cool skill at level 20, for the rest it's kind of just another level... In 5e they have 'capstone' abilities (which frankly most classes capstone is not worth as much as you get from dipping in another class), but in 3.x this was not a thing and most classes that have some neat ability right at 20 are carryovers from 2e supplements.

As for ninja... yeah i think the rogue is just better even though the ninja gets a few more mechanical benefits.. it just doesnt feel like it belongs here. In my view.

That's why we changed the name to Phantom! But to your point, I would consider the Phantom as the beginners guide to a rogue type build. It gets just about everything you need to get from Rogue if you just go with a simply P25/SD5 so it is not as complex as trying to put together a Rogue. However, Rogue is infinitely more complex and allows for so much more creativity in building a viable character that is unique instead of a cookie cutter. Phantom makes it pretty tough to mess up your build... Get Epic Precision, Expose Weakness, Epic Dodge and PTWF, congrats, you've succeeded with your build. With Rogue it's more about the combination you put together alongside getting those key feats which makes it so much more versatile, fun and in many cases more powerful.

[aaron22]

That's why we changed the name to Phantom! But to your point, I would consider the Phantom as the beginners guide to a rogue type build. It gets just about everything you need to get from Rogue if you just go with a simply P25/SD5 so it is not as complex as trying to put together a Rogue. However, Rogue is infinitely more complex and allows for so much more creativity in building a viable character that is unique instead of a cookie cutter. Phantom makes it pretty tough to mess up your build... Get Epic Precision, Expose Weakness, Epic Dodge and PTWF, congrats, you've succeeded with your build. With Rogue it's more about the combination you put together alongside getting those key feats which makes it so much more versatile, fun and in many cases more powerful.

wouldnt this be its major weakness. synergy doesnt really exist with this class. its barely viable at all levels. taking it 4 or 10 or 25 really doesnt matter all you really are doing is gimping. its not like monk or druid where synergies lie within the build making it desirable to stay. nor does this exist in a state like sorc or rogue where it is a gateway to your eventual developed and capable build. it also doesnt lend itself to taking a few levels to improve an existing build like fighter or cleric does. if it gave itself a few synergies with itself i could see this being a complete and fleshed out class. without it is just lacking and feels gimped. with that said, no class that has SA/epic dodge/EW/PTWF with HiPS(cross class) and clickie invis is going to be truely gimp. but that loses the creativity of building that is so much fun. it is a cookie cutter. i see what was attempted, but while playing it i felt way behind my peers in effectiveness. at first i blamed the armor restrictions and worked through that. then during the middle levels i felt dps too low for the style and vulnerability of the character. i havent made it to higher middle levels, but i fear this will only escalate as i progress. so i RcR'ed adding some surviabilty and dps by mixing some swash in earlier. and switching out SD for sin levels lowering my phantom levels to 16. this is fine but the more levels i remove of phantom the better the build becomes. sure there is some of it that is L2P on me. i can accept that. its easier to play rogue though. and doesnt that go against the premise of having phantom be a stepping stone to the rogue. just my opinion.

[chad878262]

That's why we changed the name to Phantom! But to your point, I would consider the Phantom as the beginners guide to a rogue type build. It gets just about everything you need to get from Rogue if you just go with a simply P25/SD5 so it is not as complex as trying to put together a Rogue. However, Rogue is infinitely more complex and allows for so much more creativity in building a viable character that is unique instead of a cookie cutter. Phantom makes it pretty tough to mess up your build... Get Epic Precision, Expose Weakness, Epic Dodge and PTWF, congrats, you've succeeded with your build. With Rogue it's more about the combination you put together alongside getting those key feats which makes it so much more versatile, fun and in many cases more powerful.

wouldnt this be its major weakness. synergy doesnt really exist with this class. its barely viable at all levels. taking it 4 or 10 or 25 really doesnt matter all you really are doing is gimping. its not like monk or druid where synergies lie within the build making it desirable to stay. nor does this exist in a state like sorc or rogue where it is a gateway to your eventual developed and capable build. it also doesnt lend itself to taking a few levels to improve an existing build like fighter or cleric does. if it gave itself a few synergies with itself i could see this being a complete and fleshed out class. without it is just lacking and feels gimped. with that said, no class that has SA/epic dodge/EW/PTWF with HiPS(cross class) and clickie invis is going to be truely gimp. but that loses the creativity of building that is so much fun. it is a cookie cutter. i see what was attempted, but while playing it i felt way behind my peers in effectiveness. at first i blamed the armor restrictions and worked through that. then during the middle levels i felt dps too low for the style and vulnerability of the character. i havent made it to higher middle levels, but i fear this will only escalate as i progress. so i RcR'ed adding some surviabilty and dps by mixing some swash in earlier. and switching out SD for sin levels lowering my phantom levels to 16. this is fine but the more levels i remove of phantom the better the build becomes. sure there is some of it that is L2P on me. i can accept that. its easier to play rogue though. and doesnt that go against the premise of having phantom be a stepping stone to the rogue. just my opinion.

This perhaps is the definitive post that makes this topic complete... OP was posting his belief that the Phantom is just far and away ahead of the rogue, but this individuals experience was the opposite. L2P can be said for any build, one can be an expert at playing melee, but have no clue how to play a melee gish /fvs/bard/whatever and then claim they lack power ( ) In this case, I would argue Phantom is perfectly balanced for what it is, but is at it's absolute best as P25/SD5 since it then get's most of the stuff a well built rogue would get. Probably a bit more sneak dice, but a bit less other stuff. There are Rogue builds that are going to be mechanically weaker at combat than P25/SD5, but will excel with other benefits, be it from taking WD, GT or myriad other PRC's or base classes. There are also Rogue builds that will be much better at combat than a P25/SD5 and builds that will have more sneak dice, better defense, etc. P25/SD5 if a fine (if cookie cutter) type of rogue build with some neat fluff abilities. That's why I said I consider it kind of a starter class. I don't see why it would feel any weaker than a rogue of equal level, assuming you go P7/SD1/P10/SD2 up to 20 you should be roughly equal footing with most well built rogues through most of those levels, perhaps a little worse in the low to mid teen's when a rogue has crippling strike, for example.

[Mallore]

Rogues never had a gear issue.

+1

Thank you

You can not +1 that after stating a post before

Rogues lack nothing currently. The gear issue they had we changed it and increased their survivability.

Because you clearly knew there was then, and still there is when you force a class to chose AC or its primary ability. And this is THE ONLY type of you build you do this to on this level. Grrr!

Personally speaking, i dont think rogues need anything else.

Every class has dead levels. That doesnt mean that we are going to give something for every class at every level.

I get you personally do not think so. However in our few discussions you always hit me with, Does this Unbalance the class, does this unbalance the server, does this open up more new builds.

And the proposal does not do any harm to any build or the server and opens new builds.

While I get every class has blank levels as they should only a few classes has as many blank levels as the rogue. and even fewer do not have a L20.

I think we have a difference of views and that is Archytpe vs Usability. I believe you view the Rogue as a great class to help players get abilities, feats and skill points they want by using it as the perfect mixer. this makes sense

I view it as the Archtype, to play the rogue. what does it actually mean to be one, to play that style and reference. Be it the Sneaky Thief, A Master Spy, A Con Man or Snake Oil Sales Man. There are things missing to make these types of style more survivable in our Maximized For Buffs Dungeons. Or how we have put spells with out nods to skills. Even equipment.

I wanted a simple update to the search skill description to mirror the Books, which quickly was rejected, and this was just text, it couldn't affect the server in any length mechanically with out a Dungeon Master. Simply bringing up anything that might benefit, raise up or be usable by the Rogue Archtypes gets attacked quickly, harshly and is dismissed by opinion even when it meets the vary guidelines people like yourself put down.

Be it skills for languages. Update to current skill descriptions, or even ability descriptions or asking for reviews of abilities (such as uncanny dodge still broken after pms sent, because ogers and stag beattles have 23 rogue levels?)

It be nice to seriously take a pause and look.