Classes that still need some love

[metaquad4]

Lets go to a happy place, people. A place of relatively underpowered classes (or classes that don't serve a purpose going beyond a lowish level) that could use something.

Here is the template I'd appreciate folks following:

Class Name:
-Suggestion 1
--Reason for suggestion 1
-Suggestion 2
--Reason for suggestion 2
-Etc
--Etc

If you are responding to another person's post, quote them and respond directly to their suggestion/reason alone. Don't go off the rails, I'd like to keep this one as clean as possible. Lets see how many pages we can go! Remember that while ideally all the ideas would be used together, they are welcome to be considered as separate ideas as well. So, if you have multiple solutions that would be bad being used together, feel free to post them all anyway.

Blackguard:
-Make the future Pious Templar Class stack with Blackguard CL for the purpose of spell duration, effect, DC, and dispellability.
--Blackguards are easily dispelled as it stands and most of their spell book relies on buffs. Its physically impossible for them atm to get higher than 14, which makes it so many mob with a dispel can woosh them away relatively easily. And lots of mobs do. This will allow them an option, at the least.
-Change the hide requirement of 5 to Lore: The Planes 2 and Lore: Religion 2.
--Not all blackguards are cloak and dagger types. But, all blackguards have knowledge of either fiends or evil deities to make pacts with. This serves them far better, and it makes more sense for them to have a bit of preemptive knowledge with both faith and the planes.
-Allow Blackguard's summon fiend to scale with blackguard level*2. A level 20 blackguard would produce a result comparable to a level 20 druid/animal domain's hellhound companion.
--Saying Blackguard's summon fiend is lackluster would be putting it in very gentle terms. Allowing it a boost would give it purpose beyond RP and allow it to be used past level 16~.
-Give the Blackguard a bonus feat at level 9.
--The cleave requirement is a bit much for the relative lack of power the class offers, and the bonus feat will allow both level 9 to not become a dead level and for the requirement to be negated. Compare it to a class like AK/WoD, who have 1 requirement but that requirement is offset by the fact that it provides a feat (blindfight) that would be taken anyway.
-Give blackguard bluff as a class skill (what blackguard doesn't practice the art of deceit) and feint at level 10.
--Feint allows some synergy with blackguard's sneak attack, and it fits their profile of guile and trickery.
-If the blackguard takes 10 levels, allow them to take a feat that improves their aura. This improvement would allow the aura to also sap 2 AB and 2 AC from the target.
--This allows the blackguard some party support and makes their aura more bent towards martial combat than DC magic (blackguards and most characters aren't exactly using DCs to win the day. In rare cases, the aura does give an edge. But this is mostly in PvP and in boss fights.).

Divine Champion:
-Allow them to draw from the full fighter list of bonus feats in addition to their own feats, if they qualify for the feat.
--Their bonus feats are very limited at the moment, and don't really suit much investment. This will make taking more levels in the class far more viable, since you'll end up having more options for what feats to take.
-Change divine wrath to fully scale off CHA. Make it provide CHA Mod/- DR, +CHA Mod to AB, Damage, and Saves. Make it last for 1*CHA Mod. Give it an additional use at level 10.
--This will make divine wrath into a sort of advanced EDM. It won't last very long and it'll only have 2 uses at 10 divine champion and 1 use at 5 divine champion so it'll make for a good feat to activate if the party is in trouble or needs to kill a particularly difficult enemy. It'll be a heck of a lot more useful than it is now.

[aaron22]

a good place to start would be a list of least used classes and then single out the ones that seem to have a distinctive "stop here" point in progression. then we could highlight why?

[Nachti]

A DM once puplished such a list with % of the players playing an alignment, class and so on.

[Eclypticon]

I think we already had a list and agreed on making some changes, and I am not sure we are even done with those.

[aaron22]

I think we already had a list and agreed on making some changes, and I am not sure we are even done with those.

patience is not a player base virtue..

[metaquad4]

A DM once published such a list with % of the players playing an alignment, class and so on.

That is a terrible indication. Those statistics are too all-encompassing. They include:

1) People who took at-least 1 level in the class (everyone knows blackguard 4 is good and shadowdancer 3 is good, but that doesn't meant the class doesn't need some work). This is the main flaw.

2) All characters in the vault, including people who don't play the character or indeed the game. This is a secondary flaw.

Its not a good indicator of who is active and playing this race or this class at all, let alone which classes are too underpowered through determining which are played the rarest. Added to that as well, popularity is a poor indicator of what is underpowered and overpowered. Plenty of people don't powerbuild. And a fair few people are also poor at building.


------

@aaron22: We have this suggestion board to propose future changes, primarily. There is nothing wrong with thinking ahead. I don't think any of us seriously think anything approved now is going to come in even a few months. I'm anticipating years, myself. But, we should still talk about it and add to the bucket list.

Edit: Sorry for going off topic, metaquad4. *Defies his own rules, is now corrupt leader*

[aaron22]

@aaron22: We have this suggestion board to propose future changes, primarily. There is nothing wrong with thinking ahead. I don't think any of us seriously think anything approved now is going to come in even a few months. I'm anticipating years, myself. But, we should still talk about it and add to the bucket list.

i love discussing this stuff even if changes are not done. it teaches me a lot more than i can count. it is also nice to talk with people in the player base about something fun that we enjoy together. i do not know everything, quite the contrary, i give ideas. thoughts on things in my perspective. i was trying (albeit poorly) to make a joke regarding eclypticon's post.

anyway..
bringing the list back in play can be deciphered knowing player/builder tendencies. and if something is misinterpreted the players can sort that during discussion. i felt that the list could bring something to light that maybe we would not think of right away.

[The Whistler]

Black Flame Zealot-> 8/10 spellcasting with lvl 7 and 10 being dead progression levels. Sacred Flame damage increased to 3 at level 10.

[aaron22]

ok so... do they need help?

base classes
archavist-?
barbarian-no
bard-no
cleric-no
druid-no
FvS-no
fighter-no
hunter-?
MaA-no
monk-no
paladin-no
phantom-maybe
ranger-no
rogue-some think so
sorcerer-no
spirit shaman-no
swashbuckler-maybe
warlock-no
wizard-no

PRC's
AKnight-no
AArcher-no
AScholar-no
ATrickster-maybe
AMage-no
Sin-no
BWarrior-yes
BFZealot-?
BkGuard-yes
BMage=no
Bodyguard-?
BGnome-?
CStalker-?
DMage-?
Dervish-no
DChord-maybe
DChampion-yes
DSeeker-?
DSlayer-no
DWarrior-maybe
DPirate-maybe
Duelist-?
DBattlerager-maybe
DDefender-no
EKnight-maybe
EArcher-no
FotForest-yes
FBerserker-maybe
FMage-no
GFKiller-maybe
Harper-?
HWarlock-no
Hierophant-maybe
Hospitaler-?
IBlade-?
MotLD-?
MoL-no
OOBI-maybe
PM-no
PTemplar-yes
RWoT-no
SAdept-?
SDancer-no
Shifter-?
SoS-?
SChanneler-?
SSinger-no
ToG-?
Tempest-no
Thamataurge-?
TKnight-?
WoD-no
Wsniper-no
WMaster-no
WDervish-no
WStalker-?

[metaquad4]

Hidden: show

base classes
archavist-TBD
barbarian-No
bard-No
cleric-No
druid-No
FvS-No
fighter-No
hunter-TBD
MaA-Yes
monk-No
paladin-No
phantom-No
ranger-No
rogue-No
sorcerer-No
spirit shaman-No
swashbuckler-No
warlock-No
wizard-No

PRC's
AKnight-No
AArcher-No
AScholar-No
ATrickster-No
AMage-No
Sin-No
BWarrior-No
BFZealot-Yes
BkGuard-Yes
BMage=No
Bodyguard-No
BGnome-Yes
CStalker-No
DMage-Yes
Dervish-No
DChord-No
DChampion-Yes
DSeeker-Yes
DSlayer-Yes
DWarrior-No
DPirate-No
Duelist-No
DBattlerager-No
DDefender-No
EKnight-No
EArcher-No
FotForest-Yes
FBerserker-No
FMage-No
GFKiller-Yes
Harper-Yes
HWarlock-No
Hierophant-No
Hospitaler-No
IBlade-No
MotLD-TBD
MoL-No
OOBI-Bugged Still?
PM-No
PTemplar-TBD
RWoT-No
SAdept-No
SDancer-No
Shifter-TBD
SoS-No
SChanneler-TBD
SSinger-No
ToG-No
Tempest-No
Thamataurge-Yes
TKnight-No
WoD-No
Wsniper-No
WMaster-No
WDervish-No
WStalker-No

So, we have:
MaA-Yes (Seriously lackluster class. Its job can be done better with 12 Fighter and some bodyguard. Its saving grace is its taunt, but that is its only one.)
BFZealot-Yes (Just an all around bad class. There is no point to taking it, the idea of divine sneak doesn't work on this server with the way the class is set up.)
BkGuard-Yes (Beyond level 3 or 4? Pointless!)
BGnome-Yes (Pointless, the way nwn2 and the server is set up. How often are you going to be clipping against walls for this to work?)
DChampion-Yes (In the face of a dash of anointed knight, why bother? You'll get better bang for your buck with others.)
DMage-Yes (Its rather pointless without a high magic server.)
DSeeker-Yes (Help Me.)
DSlayer-Yes (It gives DR and H. BAB spellcasting. But, gishes have been gimped to all hell with the dispel fix.)
FotForest-Yes (The fact that its con bonus doesn't scale with bonuses helps kill it. And it has decently heavy requirements.)
GFKiller-Yes (Why would you even do it? Many mobs (and players) are immune to fear effects or can save easily. Phantom gives you better ethereal steps and more sneak attack.)
Harper-Yes (HELP ME!)
Thamataurge-Yes (Summoning is being worked on quite well, but the bonuses this class offers are not worth what it takes to qualify)

As far as I am aware, this is a good list. BG has done a good job on Barbarian and Swashbuckler. . .but, I think these classes could use some extra. As a character builder, in good faith, I wouldn't recommend any of them. Other classes can do the job in a far superior manner. I'd consider all of them lackluster.

[Ariella]

Well i am only going to comment on what i play a hell of a lot of.

Sorceress - Comparing to a wizard this class could use a little love, With the way favored schools are done in nwn2 they only have one more cast per level then a wizard. While getting spells at a level behind meaning they can't fit as many PrC's in, No bonus feats and the new pnp skills have increased the value of int over cha in a rp sense.

Solution - I would suggest adding one more spell per level and allow spell re-picking in epic levels. But really the second ones actually a bug.

Paladin - New kits have helped, but at the same time the bug fixing nerfed them, So we are pretty much where we started. paladins still feel less then their divine cousins, Yet have one of the most restricting RP.

Solution - Change holy sword to 1d6 and increase duration, Or remove dispel and increase duration. Give diviner a 4th level spell slot and change casting from wisdom to charisma.

[AlwaysSummer Day]

Bonus: When I searched for "bgtscc" on nwn2db along with individual classes these were the results:

Hidden: show

Barbarian 115
Bard 300
Cleric 343
Druid 64
Favored Soul 160
Fighter 1078
Monk 307
Paladin 157
Ranger 223
Rogue 565
Sorcerer 113
Spirit Shaman 42
Swashbuckler 184
Warlock 131
Wizard 323

Anointed Knight 96
Arcane Archer 82
Arcane Scholar 181
Arcane Trickster 57
Assassin 382
Avenger 6
Black flame Zealot 19
Black Guard 244
Child of night 21
Daggerspell mage 33
Dervish 66
Divine champion 140
Divine seeker 17
Dissonant chord 29
Doom guide 22
Dragon warrior 33
Dragonslayer 111
Dread Pirate 58
Duelist 100
Dwarven Defender 56
Eldritch Knight 195
Elemental Archer 140
Fist of the Forest 49
Frenzied Berserker 203
Frost Mage 119
Ghost faced killer 26
Harper Agent 13
Hellfire Warlock 18
Hospitaler 61
Invisible blade 38
Palemaster 119
Red Wizard 29
Sacred fist 69
Shadow Dancer 359
Storm Lord 42
Tempest 163
Warpriest 35
Warrior of darkness 69
Weapon master 278
Whirling Dervish 116
Wilderness stalker 60

I made this for my poll to see what classes we were playing. It seems somewhat relevant to this discussion so here it is. I suspect that the ones that appear least used might be most in need of tweaking. Compare the least used ones on this list to the custom changes and you notice that Harper Agent for instance has no custom changes at all. Let's look at the class -

Requirements: Alertness, Iron Will, Diplomacy 8, Survival 2, Lore Local 4, non evil only, and spellcasting.

That is a steep buy in already. Alertness is going to generally only be useful for someone who invests in wisdom. Iron Will is generally only useful for someone with low wisdom. So that is at least one wasted feat. All three skills are RP skills thus are flavor. On top of that you must be playing a character with at least some skill casting.

Level 1: Spellcasting progression, bardic knowledge, D6 HP, medium bab, high will, simple weapons, light armor, 6 skill points

OK this isn't terrible I guess. The weapons and armor are useless. Medium bab is meh. . . , high will is meh. . . ,bardic knowledge is nothing without a DM unless that has changed, spell casting progression is good.

Level 2: +2 saving throw against mind spells, +3 against traps.

Alright so more will is useless. The +3 vs traps is actually OK. Not anything exciting but it is there I guess.

Level 3: For 30 seconds a day you get +2 unisaves

useless unless you want everyone to know your secretly batman err. . . I mean a harper. Also 30 seconds is like a sick joke.

Level 4: Dominate animal three times a day.

I presume it uses your CL? Well having played a Enchantment focused spellcaster for half a decade I can assure you this spell is trash. It only affects animals and it is only a 4th level spell. It will do no good after level 10ish.

Level 5: +2 unisave

[Diamore]

Harper
Every time I decide to play a new character, I always pause to look over Harper Agent as I frequently forget why I do not use this class whose lore I like.
- It needs to allow non-spellcasters to take it.
- It needs a passive improvement to saves at every level rather than situational and short term buffs.
- It needs one variant that gains spell levels and one that gains Feats from a small pool of options. Or a choice at level 1 that switches between these two level up options if possible.
- It needs a class only spell-like ability that communicates with or identifies other Harper Agents.

Divine Champion
My all time favourite prestige class and I have no characters with any levels of it anymore.
- Requires more than one use of its Core ability per day. Preferably a timer such as once every 3 minutes.
- Requires an improvement to its Feat selection, the effects of its Core ability or select-able Class required Feats. Examples include a feat that grants additional uses of Core ability, alternative uses of core ability, synergy with the Combat Focus line of feats or improvements to their deities weapon of choice.
- Essentially an increased utility and diversity of build options as it should be a prestige version of Fighter. Perhaps justifying additional or alternative requirements.

Ghost Face Killer
One of my main characters is a Ghost Face Killer, but this class has a large number of unusable or ineffective abilities.
- Is essentially an unaligned Blackguard without the various build synergies from their level 2 Dark Blessing.
- Is quickly outclassed by equal levels of Blackguard, Wilderness Stalker, Assassin, Phantom or Rogue.
- Frightful attacks low number of uses, low DCs, slow casting, multiple immunities and limited application make it virtually worthless.
- Improving this ability would involve adding a +DC based off of Intimidate. Removing the number of uses entirely as well as the death effect and replacing it with an area debuff similar to Battle Howl with an activated attack mode. Perhaps a level 10 Touch of Death like ability to replace the lost instant kill mechanic.
- Ghost Steps short duration and obvious counters make the limited uses very noticeable. The improvement to Ghost Step at level 6 should include an increased duration, Ethereal currently has little/no difference.

A Short List of Poor Class Decisions:
Fist of the Forest: Lore is incredibly specific and unforgiving, making it difficult to justify in several combinations. Its most effective classes gain only limited use; Monk (-doubles up bonuses) or Barbarian (-unarmed requirements/bonuses). Ranger and Druid waste a lot to gain little from this class.

Divine Seeker: Is not as good as 5 levels of Rogue. Unless you actively do not want to be a Rogue and desperately want a Charisma based self heal.

Elemental Archer: Outclassed by the easier to get Anointed, Warrior of Darkness and Dragon Warrior. Ineffective class abilities that have additional limitations imposed on unique Elemental Shot.

Dervish: A light armour class that only allows kukris for finesse builds. Severe drawbacks to core class ability until level 9. Dread Pirate, Dervish and Tempest all fit builds better with more effective abilities and greater individual synergy.

[Valefort]

That would be my list

MaA- perhaps ?
BFZealot- yes
CStalker- incoming
DChampion- probably needs an update of divine wrath, 1/day is too little
DSeeker- probably
Harper- in the to do list
WStalker- maybe

BGnome-Yes (Pointless, the way nwn2 and the server is set up. How often are you going to be clipping against walls for this to work?)

All the time actually, and often enough for the double bonuses. It's pretty hard to be in a completely open area, you have to want it.

[metaquad4]

Well i am only going to comment on what i play a hell of a lot of.

Sorceress - Comparing to a wizard this class could use a little love, With the way favored schools are done in nwn2 they only have one more cast per level then a wizard. While getting spells at a level behind meaning they can't fit as many PrC's in, No bonus feats and the new pnp skills have increased the value of int over cha in a rp sense.

Solution - I would suggest adding one more spell per level and allow spell re-picking in epic levels. But really the second ones actually a bug.

Sorcerers are very lackluster compared to wizards. Their ONLY saving grace is synergy with divine shield. Other than that, you are way better off going wizard. They need more spells per day, imo, to close the gap between them and wizard. And 1 more spell known per circle. Kaedrin did the latter in a neat way, where at CL 21 you got 1 more level 1 spell, CL 22 you got 1 more level 2 spell, CL 23 you got 1 more level 3 spell, etc. At CL 30, I forget what you got. Never reached a natural CL 30 with my old build on that server. Basically, the more you multiclassed into spells that didn't offer full progression, the less of that bonus you'd get. It works well.

Paladin - New kits have helped, but at the same time the bug fixing nerfed them, So we are pretty much where we started. paladins still feel less then their divine cousins, Yet have one of the most restricting RP.

Solution - Change holy sword to 1d6 and increase duration, Or remove dispel and increase duration. Give diviner a 4th level spell slot and change casting from wisdom to charisma.

Paladins need no help, imo. I've seen/made some pretty crazy builds, and with the new kits you can get some good stuff.