Orc Class

[chad878262]

I think you misread a little about EoG... First, it progresses rage uses per day where none of the other classes do(barbarian aside). Second it gets +1 natural AC at 3, 6 and 9, then gets +2 moral AC at 10. That's +5 AC, total.

[aaron22]

I think you misread a little about EoG... First, it progresses rage uses per day where none of the other classes do(barbarian aside). Second it gets +1 natural AC at 3, 6 and 9, then gets +2 moral AC at 10. That's +5 AC, total.

yes it does increase rages which can i get a numbers of that benefit.

i subtracted the -2 AC that you get from the swing blindly feat. if i remember, it is a natural ac penalty.

[chad878262]

Ok, gotcha... But it should be noted that due to the +5 AC vs. -4 when raging (-2 normal -2 swing blindly) you are still at +1 AC when raging vs. -2, which is where you get +3... In addition to this, the AC bonuses are not tied to rage, so that +5 AC is permanent.

Finally, as to the last ability, I think that should be similar to Frenzied Berserker, allowing them to not die while raging.

[aaron22]

if its a morale penalty then you would receive +3 Natural and would be zero morale ac bonus. none the less, it is only a +3 ac bonus. which is good but not more desirable than any other option.

I really doubt that a high percent of meaningful fights will not be done while raging, that would be a bad choice anyway.

[aaron22]

and another thing to note about the +3 scarring natural AC is it will not stack with Ice Troll as Ice Troll will NOT stack with any other natural AC. the natural will add when not raging and then get circumvented while raging. not a good bonus.

[chad878262]

and another thing to note about the +3 scarring natural AC is it will not stack with Ice Troll as Ice Troll will NOT stack with any other natural AC.

Saves a Feat, that's an extra Extended Rage or something...

if its a morale penalty then you would receive +3 Natural and would be zero morale ac bonus. none the less, it is only a +3 ac bonus. which is good but not more desirable than any other option.

I really doubt that a high percent of meaningful fights will not be done while raging, that would be a bad choice anyway.

True, but with +2 AB / +2 Damage added on during rage, that compares quite favorably with Anointed Knight getting + 1-4 damage and 2 epic feats... Assuming those 2 epic feats are used on Great Strength that is +1 AB, +2-5 damage (~3.5 average) vs. +2 AB, +2 Damage... That seems a fair trade, 1.5 average damage for 1 AB isn't in favor of the EoG, but it is not some kind of major bonus to the AK. The AK has Iron Will and high will saves, EoG gets +2 to all saves as well as +2 will saves for party members. So while the AK will have slightly better will saves, EoG will win on slightly better fortitude and reflex saves. AC is in favor of EoG by 1. the AK has tumble for +3 AC, EoG has +3 AC while raging, +5 otherwise and can get +1 from getting tumble to 10. However, AK also has spellcraft, giving +6 saves vs. max of +3 for EoG cross-class.

In the end, while AK is better than EoG I don't think it is leaps and bounds better...and AK is the best melee PRC available, so I would say EoG should be relatively well balanced.

[aaron22]

AK also gets 9 feats at the cost of one that benefits. the shield/armor prof provides 3 more ac at no cost (MFP is not all that common). i would disagree that it is not leaps better.

i think it would be a waste of valuable time to make a class that nobody will take.

[chad878262]

AK also gets 9 feats at the cost of one that benefits. the shield/armor prof provides 3 more ac at no cost (MFP is not all that common). i would disagree that it is not leaps better.

i think it would be a waste of valuable time to make a class that nobody will take.

1 AC from Full Plate vs. Chain Mail (remember, Armor changes) I'll give you, but using a Tower Shield comes at the expense of AB and, is not really something that a barbarian is going for anyway... They are going for the Great Axe/Falchion/Great Sword type character and Monkey grip is just another feat lost (and another penalty to AB when used)... I also fail to see the 9 feats they get. Blindfight (EoG gets), Heavy Armor (just discussed, slight bonus), Tower Shields (just discussed, only a bonus if you don't want to be a heavy weapons build), Alertness (dubious value), toughness (this one is nice), Unbroken flesh (also nice), two epic feats (discussed previously)...

Realize, that the goal is never going to be for new PRC's to supplant existing ones. It will be to offer niche roles/benefits that offer a different kind of RP at a relatively balanced power level. As discussed in the BladeSinger thread, the thought with the way the class is balanced is that a well built DragonSlayer will be better, but the BS can hold it's own, so that is important.

Another option, since EoG progresses Rages would be to also make EoG grant Mighty Rage with 11 combined Barb/EoG levels, which would theoretically allow for B10/EoG10/X10 while still being able to get epic rage. You'd lose out on Barbarian goodies from 11-20 such as extra AC, a bonus feat and evasion, but it would open up opportunities to add in other classes to the build while still ending up with 20 combined levels of barbarian for purposes of rage/epic rage/thundering rage...

[aaron22]

depending upon how you distribute your AK levels you can have up to 9 open feats or if lets say you group AK at levels 6-15 you would receive 8 open feats to pick anything from. thats a big difference over zero. big

[chad878262]

depending upon how you distribute your AK levels you can have up to 9 open feats or if lets say you group AK at levels 6-15 you would receive 8 open feats to pick anything from. thats a big difference over zero. big

Are you sure you are thinking of the BGtSCC version of AK found here: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=49035

I ask because this version get's 3 assigned feats (Blindfight, Toughness, Alertness) and 2 Bonus Feats (level 9 and 10, usually chosen in Epics). Now, if you want to count heavy armor, tower shields and DR 3/- then fine...I still come to 8 and am missing 1 to get to 9, but I still don't see how these are 'open' feats. As I stated, Heavy Armor is not some kind of HUGE difference... It's 1 AC. The build is going for using a Great Axe so Tower Shields are not a true loss. The only real, true loss is toughness, which you will be taking anyway to get Steadfast and the 2 bonus epic feats. However, you are gaining +2 AB and +2 Damage which is as good as the F12 Melee Mastery Feat during rages (which anyone will tell you is better than most epic feats...The functional equivalent of 4 Great Strengths! Also combines Greater Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization, depending on how you want to think about it).

My point remains that it get's enough to make it a viable choice, giving the barbarian a path to extra AB/Damage that usually only F12 gets access to.

[aaron22]

[quote="chad878262"]Are you sure you are thinking of the BGtSCC version of AK found here: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=49035
[/quote

i was not looking at the BGtSCC version. my mistake. so there are two open feats ONLY for that PrC. thank you for clarifying that for me.

you had stated that comparing great classes to a new custom one is flawed and i agree to an extent. i began this quest with a simple goal. make playing an orc desirable from a mechanical standpoint. playing an orc has so many counters that the other races do not have to contend with. but these races have not just race specific PrC's but archetype class defining PrC's. this is not the reason why elves and dwarves are more populated on our server, but is a factor. I do not want an orc class that devastates the server. what i would like to see is a conversation that includes the orc's PrC as a high end version of build concepts regarding the barbarian class. that simple move would change a lot as far as establishing an orc presence and maintaining one after that. one or two players rolling orc instead of another race is big. having that player know that their build is effective. not a failing snowflake. i believe that if that occurred the RP could keep most of them.

[chad878262]

Are you sure you are thinking of the BGtSCC version of AK found here: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=49035
[/quote

i was not looking at the BGtSCC version. my mistake. so there are two open feats ONLY for that PrC. thank you for clarifying that for me.

you had stated that comparing great classes to a new custom one is flawed and i agree to an extent. i began this quest with a simple goal. make playing an orc desirable from a mechanical standpoint. playing an orc has so many counters that the other races do not have to contend with. but these races have not just race specific PrC's but archetype class defining PrC's. this is not the reason why elves and dwarves are more populated on our server, but is a factor. I do not want an orc class that devastates the server. what i would like to see is a conversation that includes the orc's PrC as a high end version of build concepts regarding the barbarian class. that simple move would change a lot as far as establishing an orc presence and maintaining one after that. one or two players rolling orc instead of another race is big. having that player know that their build is effective. not a failing snowflake. i believe that if that occurred the RP could keep most of them.

So do you think something like my suggestion that EoG in all ways combines with Barbarian levels (as far as qualification/rage/mighty rage/etc.) would do it? Or are you thinking that is still not enough?

[Valefort]

Rage progression cannot be done I was told (otherwise bear warrior would have it).

[chad878262]

Rage progression cannot be done I was told (otherwise bear warrior would have it).

That is kind of kick in the nards Vale...

Maybe give it Extended Rage I and II at 4 and 8 as well as Extra Rage in the levelling to make up for no rage progression?

[aaron22]

i am unsure. i am not an expert in building, finding the places inside a build plan that pile. yes. i think it does. i think its a really good idea.

+2 AC, 6 Feats, DR 3/-, Evasion
for
blindfight, blind sight, Aura +2 will, +2 AB and Damage, +2 morale AC, +3 natural when not rage, +2 ST universal, DC 20+con bonus RTA blindness.

does that seem like something you would build with?