Feat Idea: Agile Swordsman

[Ambaryerno]

It's always bugged me that 2Hers are always locked into RAWR SMASH! by DnD. Especially when many 2H weapons are actually very fast and agile IRL. Since my Master of the Longsword class seems to have been dismissed, I'd had another thought to at least partly address it:

Agile Swordsman

Through extensive training and familiarity with their weapon, the character has learned to wield it with finesse rather than relying on strength when using it in two hands. He may therefore use his DEX bonus for attack in place of his strength when wielding a weapon he has Focused in in two hands, even if the weapon doesn't ordinarily qualify for Finesse.

Requirements:

DEX 19
Weapon Focus in any melee weapon of the character's size class or larger (IE a human must have Weapon Focus in a Medium or larger weapon)
Weapon Finesse
Epic Prowess

[Hoihe]

I'd love love love this.

[chad878262]

On the surface I don't see anything OP about it, quite the contrary it would be quite painful during the leveling process since you take weapon finesse, but won't be able to get Agile Swordsman until Epics... So until you get to epic levels and take Epic Prowess you are just a warrior without a shield (though you could use one until epics it certainly wouldn't fit the RP) who has lower AB and lower damage (to go along with your lower AC.

I think it would be better to make it a pre-epic feat that can be taken fairly early (maybe make the requirements Weapon Finesse, DEX 19 and BAB +5, for instance). It would actually go fairly well with One Hander.

I would also put some restrictions on it, for instance it should not work with large weapons such as Great Axe/Sword or Warmace. These weapons are HEAVY and would not be able to be used with agility over raw strength. Not that it would be overpowered to do so, it just wouldn't make sense, from a lore perspective. I would also limit this to light armor for the same reason (with higher DEX you're probably better off in light armor anyway), it just makes more sense that if you are trying to be an 'agile swordsman' that you wouldn't be wearing a suit of chainmail or full plate.

In pretty much every way a DEX'er is going to be better off dual wielding and this only works with nothing in the off-hand so it really is an under-powered way to go even if we introduce such a feat (still going to have lower strength= less damage and no TWF so you don't get the extra attacks to make up for the lack of damage per hit).

[ctothep]

I always wanted to play a dexer using a katana so i am all for this

[Vogar Eol]

So, rapier gnomes?

[Ambaryerno]

Restricting it away from Heavy weapons sort of guts the whole purpose of making a DEX 2Her viable. I could see limiting it to your size class +1 (so a Halfling could apply it to Small and Medium weapons, but not Large, while a Human can use it with Medium and Large). Besides, you'd be surprised how agile "heavy" weapons can be. However as an alternative I could suggest it applying it to these weapons types:

All swords when wielded 2H
Polearms (excluding Scythe).

This would fit lore (and the name) better, as while greataxes and maces are very blade-heavy, swords as a rule are going to be much better balanced, lending themselves better to a more agile fighting style (despite the lore and name, our Greatsword is functionally more of an analog to the real-world longsword in how it's used, and these are FAST swords).

And frankly, DnD GROSSLY overestimates its weapon weights to begin with, so that's a dangerous metric to use. Also, as the entire idea is to allow 2H weapons to be finessed it should NOT work with the One Hander feat. I could see creating a new Two Hander style to synergize with it, however.

I can agree on the toon must be wearing Light Armor, and to those requirements.

As far as damage, I could see it working very well with Dervish's damage bonuses (especially since they're not tied to Finesse weapons, anyway). Plus if you're treated as having a finesse weapon it opens up feats like Deadly Defense and Combat Insight.

[Ambaryerno]

Reposting revised version for clarity:

Agile Swordsman

Through extensive training and familiarity with their weapon, the character has learned to wield it with finesse rather than relying on strength when using it in two hands. He may therefore use his DEX bonus for attack in place of his strength when wielding any sword or polearm (excluding scythes) up to one size larger than his race as if he has Weapon Finesse. For example, a human may apply this feat to either a longsword, greatsword, or halberd, but not a battleaxe, greataxe, or scythe.

Additionally, any feats and bonuses which require a finesseable weapon (IE Deadly Defense) will also apply to the affected weapons. The feat NO LONGER applies if the character equips an off-hand weapon or shield, or wears medium or heavy armor.

Requirements:

DEX 19
Weapon Finesse
BAB +5

[Steve]

If this Feat was possible and appropriate to bring onto the Server, would it be that:

- STR modifier is still 1.5 with TH? Or, if you have INT + Combat Insight, this?
- Would there be additional/back up feats like Two-Weapon Defense, called Two-Handed Defense, to assist with the loss of Shields? Or would taking this feat be seen as a trade-off to higher AC?

I'd think, at most, it would limit to d10 weapons. And maybe the Req. should be: STR 12/14, DEX 17, Weapon Finesse, BAB+5. Adding a STR minimum will keep from serious min/maxing occurring in builds.

DEX is already such an "giving" Ability, all except carrying ability. It effects AC, AB, Skills, DMG, etc. Now, if large weapons are opened up, you just increase dmg in a significant way.

Anyway, I'd totally put this Feat to use!

[Ambaryerno]

Yeah, the usual 1.5* modifier would apply. AFAIK that's hard-coded, anyway, and can't be gotten around without serious scripting.

I've suggested a TH Defense feat in the past, both here and on other servers. Usually gets thrown out with the typical "but 2H weapons are all about attack attack attack!"

I wouldn't restrict it by damage dice. For one there's not enough D10 weapons to make it worthwhile. I think limiting it to sword-type weapons (longsword, bastard sword, greatsword, katana, scimitar, falchion — speaking of, it's ALWAYS bugged me that Falchions are considered Large in DnD, when they're more typically arming sword sized — etc.) and polearms other than scythes (so quarterstaff, spear, and halberd) is sufficient.

[Mallore]

I know this is off topic slightly.

To bad this feat didnt just let you add dex bonus to damage with your sword.

[Ambaryerno]

I know this is off topic slightly.

To bad this feat didnt just let you add dex bonus to damage with your sword.

I don't think we'll ever see DEX for Damage be a thing. And I say this firmly believing that DEX should provide the damage bonus on any ranged weapons that are thrown via launcher, IE bows/crossbows and slings qualify, but not axes, darts, etc (I despise the "Mighty" quality. Bows are made to draw a set distance, and either you're strong enough to pull it to full draw or you're not).

[Steve]

Was thinking: http://nwn2db.com/build/?262115

Not very optimized, but would be close to what I'd build (for fun!! )

[Wyatt]

I know this is off topic slightly.

To bad this feat didnt just let you add dex bonus to damage with your sword.

I don't think we'll ever see DEX for Damage be a thing. And I say this firmly believing that DEX should provide the damage bonus on any ranged weapons that are thrown via launcher, IE bows/crossbows and slings qualify, but not axes, darts, etc (I despise the "Mighty" quality. Bows are made to draw a set distance, and either you're strong enough to pull it to full draw or you're not).

The problem with having dex for damage provides one stat for ac, damage and ab. It works in 5th edition because stats do not go nearly as high but you could literally put everything into dex and have a super character with one pumped stat for all your combat needs.

[Hawke]

I know this is off topic slightly.

To bad this feat didnt just let you add dex bonus to damage with your sword.

I don't think we'll ever see DEX for Damage be a thing. And I say this firmly believing that DEX should provide the damage bonus on any ranged weapons that are thrown via launcher, IE bows/crossbows and slings qualify, but not axes, darts, etc (I despise the "Mighty" quality. Bows are made to draw a set distance, and either you're strong enough to pull it to full draw or you're not).

The problem with having dex for damage provides one stat for ac, damage and ab. It works in 5th edition because stats do not go nearly as high but you could literally put everything into dex and have a super character with one pumped stat for all your combat needs.

Don't forget... Evasion and Improved Evasion for higher reflex saves... and uncanny dodge for not being flatfooted with the ac bonus.

Just something to think about.

[chad878262]

The problem with having dex for damage provides one stat for ac, damage and ab. It works in 5th edition because stats do not go nearly as high but you could literally put everything into dex and have a super character with one pumped stat for all your combat needs.

QFT, well said Wyatt.

Consider that you can take a feat for INT to damage, and INT can also be used toward AC in some builds. You can also use WIS to AB and AC for Monk heavy builds (and WIS AC for Phantom as well). DEX is the base for AC and can be used for AB. STR is the base for AB and damage. It's one thing to allow for various abilities to be used for 2 of the 3 (AC, AB, Damage) but nothing should ever be able to apply to all three on a per hit basis (DEX can already apply damage through EW anyway).

If Bards weren't so OP it would be cool to implement something that allows CHA to attack (I think there was something like that in 3.5 D&D)... Just think of all the max CHA paladin builds too!

Back to seriousness though, I don't know that we would consider allowing finesse, deadly defense, etc. to apply to non-finesse weapons, but if we did, we would not also allow DEX to damage as it would allow for some pretty sick MAX DEX builds with a bit of INT using Duelist to get high 50's AC, Mid to high 40's AB and damage comparable to a traditional great weapon fighter that suffers from much lower AC and has to drop AB to gain damage. And of course as Hawke stated while I was typing this (ninja!) the high dex for light armor would allow for evasion/imp evasion/EW/whatever even if any changes are made to those feats.