Evasion - Not in Heavy/Medium Armor

[Calodan]

So let me get this straight. We are arguing the Heavy/Medium armor can not use evasion due to weight?

Going off that assumption then why is Mith ChainSHIRT a light armor? Would it not by weight be considered clothing instead?

Then how do we say that someone wearing a FP with 1lb weight that has been magically made less weight can not evade suddenly?

Then how do we argue that one can not EVADE in Medium/Heavy Armors and still have 30 tumble? Because when you evade you most likely did a tumble to do so?

All I am saying is you can not have your cake and eat it too. If you are going to make argument of physics for one end of something in balance then you also need to change the other physic. If one can not evade then one can not tumble. This needs to be part of the equation in this. Tumble should not work in medium/heavy armors either then

This is logical and therefore the best way to go about this. Since after all we are arguing from a point of logic correct?

[Juramenta]

Wasn't it the oracle who had evasion in heavy armor?
Or am I messing up different editions again?

[chad878262]

Tumble is impacted by armor, that's why there is an armor check penalty.

This really seems to be getting repetitive at this point so I am not going to repeat everything I've said before, when/if we make a change it will be based on what the collective QC, Developers and Admins think is best for the server as a whole. Folks can swing big hammers, or continue making attacks against someone with an opposing view instead of the view itself or whatever other tactics they would like. We have taken some of the ideas from this thread and discussed within QC (sans breaking forum rules comments and general negativity) so thanks to everyone that provided their feedback.

[Calodan]

Tumble is impacted by armor, that's why there is an armor check penalty.

This really seems to be getting repetitive at this point so I am not going to repeat everything I've said before, when/if we make a change it will be based on what the collective QC, Developers and Admins think is best for the server as a whole. Folks can swing big hammers, or continue making attacks against someone with an opposing view instead of the view itself or whatever other tactics they would like. We have taken some of the ideas from this thread and discussed within QC (sans breaking forum rules comments and general negativity) so thanks to everyone that provided their feedback.

The armor provided by it however is not.

The AC is granted by being able to even tumble. So what I am saying is that AC should not be granted for those in medium/heavy armors. That is after all why many classes take it. Not for the tumble checks their are very few IG areas that use this check. Then a tumble check is made for avoiding AOOs but that is it. People take it for the AC and one can not be granted AC if they can not tumble due to weight of armor. That is the point. That is the logic Chad. No AC should be granted to Medium and Heavy Armor users who use this skill. I am not sure they should even be able to use the skill to be honest since it is contrary to evasion and how it may or may not be fixed.

[SBlack]

Tumble is impacted by armor, that's why there is an armor check penalty.

This really seems to be getting repetitive at this point so I am not going to repeat everything I've said before, when/if we make a change it will be based on what the collective QC, Developers and Admins think is best for the server as a whole. Folks can swing big hammers, or continue making attacks against someone with an opposing view instead of the view itself or whatever other tactics they would like. We have taken some of the ideas from this thread and discussed within QC (sans breaking forum rules comments and general negativity) so thanks to everyone that provided their feedback.

Well, if you really want to flaunt your gleaned station I'll just state this. If you alienate folk and selfishly vote for playstyles you feel personally are more attractive, folk will just move on. Like Lisa said 'cutting off your nose to spite your face'. Most players try this out and others frequent it because there is no monthly sub fee. If a person attempts to shove their opinion down others throats in the real world, what do you think happens? The other person is going to avoid having anything to do with the offender. You are an 'elected offical' more or less and should do what the people want you to do. Do the right thing and not what appeals to you personally and I'll respect you as a person as will the community in general.

[chad878262]

Fair enough Calodan, but logic doesn't go very far 'round these parts...

Generally things are either brought close to PnP standard (dispel fix) addressed to make them function as intended (bugs) or added/removed/modified in the name of 'balance' or something similar. The explanation is made in line with the change, the change is not made in line with logic, if that makes sense.

There has been no call to nerf tumble and that would be it's own discussion regardless. Each change needs to be discussed separately, otherwise it just becomes a filibuster conversation that never goes anywhere.

Well, if you really want to flaunt your gleaned station I'll just state this. If you alienate folk and selfishly vote for playstyles you feel personally tare more attractive, folk will just move on. Like Lisa said 'cutting off your nose to spite your face'. Most players try this out and others frequent it because there is no monthly sub fee. If a person attempts to shove their opinion down others throats in the real world, what do you think happens? The other person is going to avoid having anything to do with the offender. You are an 'elected offical' more or less and should do what the people want you to do. Do the right thing and not what appeals to you personally and I'll respect you as a person as will others.

Take the time to search previous posts I've made over the years if you want to see my stance. This discussion was not started by me or anyone else in QC, but because other players want us to consider it. Contrary to what you may think, no matter WHAT we do we are going to alienate a portion of the player base because everyone wants different things. Not sure how my statement was flaunting anything other than calling out that personal attacks (which are against forum rules) are not really something that adds to the conversation.

Otherwise, thanks for the advice, but it's really an impossible bit to follow.

[SBlack]

You are calling me out suggesting to your own personal benefit spewing propaganda that I'm personally attacking others. How is that not a personal attack on your part?

My intent is to stand up for personal playstyles and mind you, neither I nor my wife will directly be affected by any change to evasion. We just want to do the right thing and be sensitive to others playing by the rules. Again, to be clear nothing here affects me at all nor my wife, but we are good people and feel the need to stand up for others. Clearly your personal attacks are representative to a biased opinion and you should take a step back and advocate your position as a QC member. It would be a responsible thing to do since you can't seem to overcome your personal bias. IMO you are far too biased to be on the QC team or the DM team for that matter. If you have any integrity at all you'll resign as a QC member because clearly you are far too biased to pass on opinions that are in the best interest of the player base. .

t.

Fair enough Calodan, but logic doesn't go very far 'round these parts...
Take the time to search previous posts I've made over the years if you want to see my stance. This discussion was not started by me or anyone else in QC, but because other players want us to consider it. Contrary to what you may think, no matter WHAT we do we are going to alienate a portion of the player base because everyone wants different things. Not sure how my statement was flaunting anything other than calling out that personal attacks (which are against forum rules) are not really something that adds to the conversation.

Otherwise, thanks for the advice, but it's really an impossible bit to follow.

[Kagger911]

/t

[Hoihe]

What about...

Evasion only works, by standard, if you are in no/light armour.

HOWEVER.



As the videos show, if you really know what the hell you're doing, you are just as agile as any person without Armour.

AS SUCH!

If you are wearing heavy/medium armour, you must also have Armour Specialization (medium) or (heavy), depending. If you do, then it acts as it does right now. If you don't? It doesn't work. Or you get a reflex penalty of -5.

[Herisheft]

[Sputnik]

Chad put in nicely here:

For some, the thought of losing something powerful is a scary thing and makes them feel their build will no longer be viable, which is how some players of lower tier builds have always felt.

This sums it up, but I'll explain a little now that I'm calmer. Cooler heads prevail and all that.

I will still survive in most epic areas, but the additonal cost of healing kits/potion/consumables will significantly reduce any profits I make from looting.
Add to that the fact that I won't be able to solo certain bosses anymore, due to the evasion/expose combo not applying anymore.

Two areas which I regularly loot that I can see being affected are the Cloud Peaks and Greypeaks mountain areas. The fire giant sorcerers and frost giant mytics will be a lot nastier, and they're already nasty! The fire giant General and frost giant King will probably stomp me if these changes go in. Not so currently, though they are both good fights.

This affects my playstyle greatly! I often log on at odd hours where soloing is the only option, and others are not always available to group up even during high-population hours.

These proposed changes will reduce the number of chests and boss drops I can loot, while increasing the amount of time it takes me to kill opponents. They will also increases my use of consumables.

All of these factors will make lootrunning (something I love doing!) more time consuming and less profitable, after everything is accounted for. To the point where it may not be worth the time anymore, for me.

NWN2 has never had the light/no armor only rule implemented for evasion. This is in line with the game manual, and I believe was done intentionally to help out the armored melee archetypes. Opinions may differ, but that reasoning makes sense to me.

Hopefully this post explains where some of us are coming from. Especially those from the lower tier build archetypes. Apologies for getting heated earlier; people are trying to take away my candy. Sure, it may be cheap corn-sugar candy, but its all Ive got! Give us armored melee types a break

[chad878262]

You are calling me out suggesting to your own personal benefit spewing propaganda that I'm personally attacking others. How is that not a personal attack on your part?

My intent is to stand up for personal playstyles and mind you, neither I nor my wife will directly be affected by any change to evasion. We just want to do the right thing and be sensitive to others playing by the rules. Again, to be clear nothing here affects me at all nor my wife, but we are good people and feel the need to stand up for others. Clearly your personal attacks are representative to a biased opinion and you should take a step back and advocate your position as a QC member. It would be a responsible thing to do since you can't seem to overcome your personal bias. IMO you are far too biased to be on the QC team or the DM team for that matter. If you have any integrity at all you'll resign as a QC member because clearly you are far too biased to pass on opinions that are in the best interest of the player base. .

t.

Fair enough Calodan, but logic doesn't go very far 'round these parts...
Take the time to search previous posts I've made over the years if you want to see my stance. This discussion was not started by me or anyone else in QC, but because other players want us to consider it. Contrary to what you may think, no matter WHAT we do we are going to alienate a portion of the player base because everyone wants different things. Not sure how my statement was flaunting anything other than calling out that personal attacks (which are against forum rules) are not really something that adds to the conversation.

Otherwise, thanks for the advice, but it's really an impossible bit to follow.

Thanks for the advice.

[Kagger911]

HOWEVER.



As the videos show, if you really know what the hell you're doing, you are just as agile as any person without Armour.

AS SUCH!

It all comes down to fitted armor; which I know most of us would spend the extra coin to get.

[Hoihe]

What about...

Evasion only works, by standard, if you are in no/light armour.

HOWEVER.



As the videos show, if you really know what the hell you're doing, you are just as agile as any person without Armour.

AS SUCH!

It all comes down to fitted armor; which I know most of us would spend the extra coin to get.

Also, in D&D, magical arms and armour automatically adjust their size to fit their wearer.

Emphasis on magic. So no for MFPs .

[Valefort]

The video merely shows that you're far from being a turtle unable to move, these guys know what they're doing however they're far from being as agile as someone without an armor. Should I post some parkour video to prove that point ?