Evasion - Not in Heavy/Medium Armor

[aaron22]

But EVERYONE knows it's broke. The question is whether we should leave it alone even though to broke and just fixing what is broke about the cannot occur.

[Hoihe]

also caster wiz/cleric/bard get more spells to their spell books whenever we decide to add more spells... for free i might add

so even at 30 they still gain power, unlike the other classes

mabey we should offer more free combat style feats for fighters, types or the more pure classes to counter act it, or even let dm's give those styles with rp backing it up, a sword fighting school anyone?

just an idea

but with a d30 system working d20 system the devide is gonna be large, I think level 40 is alright for fighters, because they get a lot more tricks along way, once you pass the level 20 caster shine in a low magic world, without immunities and high eb weapons etc,

what we use to do in my old server was add spell seeds into the loot system for new spells being added so that wizards /clerics would have purchase these new spells, through a batering system set up by players. That way so they could feel the impact of gold on their charaters, because caster don't really cost that much money to play

Casters also don't have any gold, because the way server is setup it favors meleers over actual casters.

At level 12, a random dwarf can do 40 damage each attack, and by 30 they'll be dealing 7 attacks a round, and since their main stat is damage and AB combined, almost all their attacks will hit. Now add expose weakness and all attacks WILL hit.

So, 40 * say 5 damage/round. They do 200 damage every round. For free. As long as they desire.

Casters? They do 200 damage, only as many times as they memorised the spell with the awfully rare rest chances, ridiculously high HP of enemies, and every enemy ridiculously spread out so they can't even use AOE spells.

So I'm not sure who is shafted more, but I dare say casters.

[Kagger911]

also caster wiz/cleric/bard get more spells to their spell books whenever we decide to add more spells... for free i might add

so even at 30 they still gain power, unlike the other classes

mabey we should offer more free combat style feats for fighters, types or the more pure classes to counter act it, or even let dm's give those styles with rp backing it up, a sword fighting school anyone?

just an idea

but with a d30 system working d20 system the devide is gonna be large, I think level 40 is alright for fighters, because they get a lot more tricks along way, once you pass the level 20 caster shine in a low magic world, without immunities and high eb weapons etc,

what we use to do in my old server was add spell seeds into the loot system for new spells being added so that wizards /clerics would have purchase these new spells, through a batering system set up by players. That way so they could feel the impact of gold on their charaters, because caster don't really cost that much money to play

Casters also don't have any gold, because the way server is setup it favors meleers over actual casters.

At level 12, a random dwarf can do 40 damage each attack, and by 30 they'll be dealing 7 attacks a round, and since their main stat is damage and AB combined, almost all their attacks will hit. Now add expose weakness and all attacks WILL hit.

So, 40 * say 5 damage/round. They do 200 damage every round. For free. As long as they desire.

Casters? They do 200 damage, only as many times as they memorised the spell with the awfully rare rest chances, ridiculously high HP of enemies, and every enemy ridiculously spread out so they can't even use AOE spells.

So I'm not sure who is shafted more, but I dare say casters.

Excuse me?

[Hoihe]

Playing meleers and gishes is awfully more easier than getting /anything/ done on a full caster when nobody is online.

Only draw back meleers/pure gishes have is that they're awfully boring and need to use consumables sometimes.

also caster wiz/cleric/bard get more spells to their spell books whenever we decide to add more spells... for free i might add

so even at 30 they still gain power, unlike the other classes

mabey we should offer more free combat style feats for fighters, types or the more pure classes to counter act it, or even let dm's give those styles with rp backing it up, a sword fighting school anyone?

just an idea

but with a d30 system working d20 system the devide is gonna be large, I think level 40 is alright for fighters, because they get a lot more tricks along way, once you pass the level 20 caster shine in a low magic world, without immunities and high eb weapons etc,

what we use to do in my old server was add spell seeds into the loot system for new spells being added so that wizards /clerics would have purchase these new spells, through a batering system set up by players. That way so they could feel the impact of gold on their charaters, because caster don't really cost that much money to play

Casters also don't have any gold, because the way server is setup it favors meleers over actual casters.

At level 12, a random dwarf can do 40 damage each attack, and by 30 they'll be dealing 7 attacks a round, and since their main stat is damage and AB combined, almost all their attacks will hit. Now add expose weakness and all attacks WILL hit.

So, 40 * say 5 damage/round. They do 200 damage every round. For free. As long as they desire.

Casters? They do 200 damage, only as many times as they memorised the spell with the awfully rare rest chances, ridiculously high HP of enemies, and every enemy ridiculously spread out so they can't even use AOE spells.

So I'm not sure who is shafted more, but I dare say casters.

Excuse me?

[Kagger911]

Playing meleers and gishes is awfully more easier than getting /anything/ done on a full caster when nobody is online.

Only draw back meleers/pure gishes have is that they're awfully boring and need to use consumables sometimes.




Sorry, Hoihe. gonna stop you there. "Gishes" for one are not viable anymore, unless you are going Fvs Fighter Cleric Herophant, but you can't have a wizard in the mix because it kills your dcs; and you get dispelled easier than a goblin caster. The meleers have it easier because of the gear that is implemented, which people have saved up through hundred of hours of play time. Pushing their own agendas and not fiddling with their body parts. Sorry to be honest but, yeah if you don't go out and adventure and try to figure out ways to do it. You're not going to.

I for one solo Hell and run back on my own. If you also want to see someone solo a boss as a mage. Just as Driam. That little hin can eradicate anything.

May I ask if your build is an rp build? If it is that's the problem. I for one hold an rp build, but at the same time using items to control a situation, or to make my saves higher by switching gear.

Not only that but we have wands and our dcs stack with items. You can have multiples of that items (Let us say a death mask Casts finger of death) My dc is still 32 with the item. We also have gauntlets of fury (Casts I.G.M.S) Sold in candlekeep. Third, the "Only draw back meleers/pure gishes have is that they're awfully boring and need to use consumables sometimes." statement. Then it seems they they have no gold for they only use consumables to survive. Sure you have a mad gents boots for a poison in kobolds, hell you can even have a pendant that is against implosion (Xavier had one just for kagger). It all works if you put your brain to it. That and I don't make my build "rp" until the later levels where I have skills to spend.

But back on the subject. Evasion, why we should "fix" it.

[chad878262]

Why aren't arcane gishes viable anymore? They aren't as powerful as divine gishes, but they can wreck most content just fine. Slower, but with little danger.

[Sputnik]

Don't mean to poke the bear or anything here Sputnik, but if you can solo those bosses then you're not really a low tier build. I imagine you steamroll through most of the server content if you can solo these two areas.
What exactly is your 'melee-type' build?

LOOK HERE YOU F'N - Nah, I'm just kidding I was referring to the archetype, or 'class' of build(armored melee) beying lower on the totem pole than many other archetypes, not my build in particular being lower tier within it's own 'class'.

Actually, I'm only able to do the things I've mentioned partially because of the nasty build my friend made for me. It's a Fighter/Rogue/Bodyguard/Divine Champion.
I also have excellent gear and a lot of gold for consumables, wands and use/day gear. Please don't see this as gloating either; it's the result of years of arduous toil and hundreds of painful lessons! The point of bringing those factors up is that not everyone has been here for years.
Not everyone has that experience and server specific knowledge. Not everyone has friends who are master builders!

I struggle to solo some high epic content areas. Other areas are just not doable. Forest of Wyrms? Forget it. I don't do the Crypt of the Dead either. Ascent to Darkhold is out of the question. Hell is nowhere near possible!
That damned lich in the frozen cave in the Cloud Peaks gets me sometimes too! I lose the odd bout to the Frost Giant King... usually when I get cocky and don't rest to recharge my boots of etherealness
I'm perfectly fine with this. The higher tier builds archetypes can solo these areas (we're talking powerbuilds with decent gear and experienced players behind them). I'm fine with that too.

My point is that I've worked/played hard to get my character to the power level he's at, where I can solo some epic content and certain bosses. Others who achieve this using armored fighter archetypes have too. It's not an easy path.
It also should not be nerfed, considering the upper power level of characters is well beyond what this type of build can achieve.

As I've mentioned, evasion has no armor restrictions in NWN2 and I believe it is intentional.
The expose weakness auto-hit bug doesn't help high AB characters as much as others, but armored fighters(who have high AB) are the ones who will suffer the most from the proposed evasion 'fix'.

My 2 cents.

::edited for spelling/grammar::

[aaron22]

Out of curiosity. Hoihe, have you ever played a pure melee to 25+. I DON'T land every hit. I get hit a bunch. I have to switch attack styles so often and have gear to complement all that. My consumables are enough to overburden 20 wizards. And I still can't level in a CR that fits my character level.

GIshes should be made to be slow moving tanks. They are viable and complicated. But you have to learn to live with long fights and sometimes waiting for 10 mins to rest so you can buff up again.

ON TOPIC. I don't care if ew is left alone, removed or somewhere in between. But I will say that when my fighter got ew, I went from struggling in lower cr areas to being able to handle cr equal areas just fine.

[Kagger911]

Why aren't arcane gishes viable anymore? They aren't as powerful as divine gishes, but they can wreck most content just fine. Slower, but with little danger.

Dispell fix ruined gishes.

[chad878262]

They're still viable though. They can solo most content, just not with 8 fighter levels. They aren't going to be good damage dealers, but they're still fully viable.

[Kagger911]

They're still viable though. They can solo most content, just not with 8 fighter levels. They aren't going to be good damage dealers, but they're still fully viable.

How high is the dc on them?

[chad878262]

You can make a CL30 gish. What does dc have to do with with the dispel fix? Gosh has never had good dc's and aren't about save or x...they just buff and bash, dispel fix just made them slower at it.
W10/EK10/PM10, only 4 APR and CL29, but crypt immunity without needing iron body.

W13+EK10/DS7 5APR and CL30.

There are still several options to build an arcane gish, even without the upcoming blade singer prc.

[Kagger911]

You can make a CL30 gish. What does dc have to do with with the dispel fix? Gosh has never had good dc's and aren't about save or x...they just buff and bash, dispel fix just made them slower at it.
W10/EK10/PM10, only 4 APR and CL29, but crypt immunity without needing iron body.

W13+EK10/DS7 5APR and CL30.

There are still several options to build an arcane gish, even without the upcoming blade singer prc.

That's at level 30 from level 20-29 you can get dispelled no problem by

•Balor
•Summons
•Vampires


Not to mention the breach list that is longer than a (germbag)'s tongue.

To me it seems plausible but not viable since you pretty much have to 100% rcr into it.

Also, blade singer is race specific only. I for one do not enjoy playing an elf. No offense to any that do.

[chad878262]

Dispels effect any equally. I leveled one too early twenties after the dispel fix and he did fine. You just have to make sure to have backups and a get out of jail free card just in case. I play a gish now that will only max at CL25, it just takes practice and planning.

[AC81]

@Sputnik:
I can relate to everything you just said. My main is a fighter, I try to use as few consumables as possible, in fact I built him specifically to be able to do that.
I've got a slightly different take than you however - my guy (and yours probably) will still do just fine for the pve content we can currently handle. We will still beat the bosses we can currently beat. It's just that it may take us a little longer to beat those bosses and we'll probably use a few more heal kits recovering from traps that we now fail to dodge. In other words, our quality of life will drop a bit but we'll still be able to succeed where we could succeed before.
They're my thoughts anyway.