To all the genasi, celestials, tieflings, spagetti monsters

[Hoihe]

i agree with flasmix 100%. the forgotten realms setting is a world of fear. fear of the gods. fear of monsters. fear of people who oppose you, your beliefs, or your way of life. fear of things that are different and therefor give uncertainty to your well being.

this is not 21st century perception. we have built a sense of security in our life that someone in the FR setting could ever think of achieving. even elminister lived in fear. drizzt.. fear. these are the greatest heroes of our stories.

This is not true. Forgotten Realms is a NobleBright campaign setting, not a GrimDark or NobleDark. Could argue that it is a GrimBright setting, with all the apocalypses that happen on BG.

NobleBright: Utopistic. Star Trek. Basically, Life is good, and it won't change for worse for the general populace.
GrimDark: Dystopistic. Warhammer. Life sucks and it's about to get even worse. There's no hope.
NobleDark: Life is good, but it is constantly threatened to become GrimDark. There's no real hope.
GrimBright: Life isn't very good, but with hard work it can reach NobleBright. Hope is what defines it.

[chad878262]

Is this defined somewhere or is this discussion about interpretation? I ask because I've read many of the novels in the past (not just RA Salvatore's novels) and I kind of get the impression the characters in those novels hover somewhere between GrimBright and Nobledark in your definitions. There is definitely a feeling of helplessness to the gods in some of the novels and only the various hero's keep things from falling off the ledge. Perhaps it is different in our timeline as it is pre ToT? Not sure, but I can't imagine myself having a devil may care attitude if I new of some of the things that occur regularly on Toril to be true.

[Flasmix]

This is not true. Forgotten Realms is a NobleBright campaign setting, not a GrimDark or NobleDark. Could argue that it is a GrimBright setting, with all the apocalypses that happen on BG.

NobleBright: Utopistic. Star Trek. Basically, Life is good, and it won't change for worse for the general populace.
GrimDark: Dystopistic. Warhammer. Life sucks and it's about to get even worse. There's no hope.
NobleDark: Life is good, but it is constantly threatened to become GrimDark. There's no real hope.
GrimBright: Life isn't very good, but with hard work it can reach NobleBright. Hope is what defines it.

That's an interesting theory, despite me disagreeing with it.

With the formula you've presented, I would say that the majority of Forgotten Realms switches between either Nobledark or Grimdark based on what region you're in. Most cities of the realm exist at the Lawful Neutral point, with some existing in Lawful Evil and Lawful Good. Just because the realms generally accepts homosexuality and trans, doesn't mean that it's not without war, slavery, racism, tyranny and evil.

Let's take a look at a few examples;

Zhentil Keep - Would you say that the people living here would agree they have a 'NobleBright' existence? It is Lawful Evil in alignment. They are a totalitarianistic government, the exact opposite of what Star Trek stands for. Life is not good there. Zhentil Keep seeks to expand it's territory and bring everybody under it's rule. Other cities in the Moonsea region try and fight to keep their independence. Mulmaster for instance, opposed them for years before officially joining them. Life here switches from Grimdark to Grimbright.

Elturel - The city is run by a Lawful Good Paladin in the Fields of the Dead, a terribly harsh landscape filled with Undead. Through perseverence, dedication and strength, Elturel is a safe haven... If you're inside of it. Outside, the Hellriders are required to cull the constant undead to keep travellers and merchants safe. Inside the walls, inhabitants would be mostly NobleBright with a few Nobledark moments thrown in.

The Underdark - Grimdark. Completely Grimdark. Life in the UD is harsh and filled with some of the most horrible monsters. Drow, Illithids and other horrors await. Definitely not the Utopian society presented in Star Trek. Not even the Klingons or Romulans had it this bad.

I did a google search to try and find out how Forgotten Realms is considered NobleBright and here's the top result https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Noblebright

It lists the Forgotten Realms setting as Grimdark, yet says something like Neverwinter Night's is Noblebright, which proves my theory of different regions having a different characteristic, with life in general being Grimdark.

[Hrafnar]

I would strive to keep any intolerance within the server's rating. Grimdark is usually a bit more adult in content, despite its Warhammer origins, imho. But yeah, probably the best thing to do is clarify where we all stand OOC before making a scene.

Edit: The romance RP comparison is interesting. I guess I have a double standard there because it's something I simply won't do in a PW online setting. It's obviously tricky because it takes something real away from my characters, but there you go.

[Flasmix]

If I had to choose, life is generally Grimdark...

But our server is portrayed as Grimbright because;
1) We've had wars between the Gate and Amn.
2) A child who was influenced by Bhaal was killed and the temple converted to the Friendly Arms.
3) Undead army attacks the city, corrupting the lands and causing poverty.
4) Dragons attacking the city.

Yet life continues, people continue and everything goes off hope.

But then again... That's my opinion on it. I wouldn't call it NobleBright because if we take the undead attack, leaving farming land unusable and causing poverty... While we didn't go into detail to show how bad the peasants were doing, doesn't mean they didn't suffer through them. It has to do with the PG-13 rating.

[Rhifox]

There's a few things to consider with regard to discrimination in RP.

1) The RL sensibilities influencing RP thing as mentioned above.

2) You get out what you put in. Many people who roleplay things like orcs, tieflings, etc, play perfectly decent or even good people. Racism is something that is influenced by exposure. It grows with distance and alienation, when other people are 'the other' upon whom can be blamed many calamities. But when you have personal interactions with someone who breaks those stereotypes, when every tiefling or orc you meet is "the good one", your view naturally softens over time. Without distance and without significant negative activities from the people playing orcs/tieflings/warlocks/etc, the communal culture is going to take a more positive viewpoint rather than a negative one. Consider the case of warlocks. When 9 out of 10 warlocks are feylocks (the CG kind, even), then the natural assumption is not going to be 'fiend worshiper', it's going to be 'oh, probably another feylock'.

If you really want to be discriminated against, you need to prove to people that you deserve to be treated badly. You cannot, and should not, just expect people to give you shit simply for your choice of race or class. Yes, there is the occasional person who is simply falling under point 1 and letting OOC influence IC, but there's just as many if not more people who are simply reacting according to the world they have been witness to.

3) Discrimination is very rarely a caricature. In these arguments it often feels like people expect racism to be expressed in unprovoked confrontation, loud voices, direct insults. If this is what you define as hostility, then yes, you are very rarely going to see any. But the truth is that such conflict occurs more as a release of frustration and hatred that has been built up and nurtured over a long period of time (and, often encouraged by mob mentalities... IE, a lot of people all sharing the same feelings bouncing it off of each other and gathering courage to act due to their numbers).

Most interactions are not going to be this. Characters who do discriminate are likely to keep it buried beneath a veneer of civility. There might be some obvious curtness in interactions, or suspicious glances, but there might not. That doesn't mean the discrimination is not happening. It just means that it's stewing.

4) Discrimination is born of cliques and cultures, haves and have nots. It develops as a result of inequalities, rather than being a cause of them. It is created by one group feeling that it deserves more than another group, and desiring the downfall of that other group in order to achieve its own gains. In other words: discrimination arises from feeling threatened. If people do not feel like themselves or the group to which they associate with is threatened, then they aren't really going to feel much discrimination.

You know who I think one of the most racist characters on the server are? Elves. Oh yes, they mostly all play good-aligned characters and act polite and tolerant and have friends among non-elves; they seem hardly the sort of spitting racist one might think. But even if having no other common qualities, even if hating each other, elf characters, and elf roleplayers, share the simple element that is being an elf. They tend to prefer to congregate with other elves, they regularly focus on matters specifically pertaining to elves. They often speak in elvish with one another, and Elven is the language most commonly taken by characters who are not elves. They almost always give off a sense that being an elf makes them superior to non-elves. And yet it's all done in a manner that seems hardly suspicious or hateful at all. That's because they are a majority group. They do not feel threatened, so there is no building frustration that has to be released. They know they are superior and don't need to announce it.

Compare that to groups like the Thayans. Thayans are often very discriminatory, and discriminated against. While this is partly because Thayans are generally evil, it is also because they are a smaller community and so there is a natural desire to try to play up themselves more. They are a minority and hold tighter to their culture as a way of preventing themselves from dissolving into the mass of the majority. Some Thayans have "gone native", influenced by local culture, and those characters are treated as traitors of the highest degree. The majority is a threat, and so it must be fought. Similarly, Thayans represent a threat to the majority, because they are weaseling their way in, making lots of money and political alliances, encouraging a culture change to something viewed as evil. So the majority is also discriminatory towards Thayans. I think the way the Enclave is treated (and treats others) is a good example of how discrimination grows into something actually overt. Thayans are not orcs, tieflings, or warlocks. They are human beings. But unlike orcs, tieflings, or warlocks, Thayans are a threat. They do not bow to the majority culture, their ways are changing the culture. There is no sympathy for that, and so it is easy for characters to discriminate here.

The crux of racism isn't that certain people are less. It's that your people are more. Or at least that your people deserve to be more. The minority will hate the majority more than the majority hate the minority, in many cases. As the orcs/tieflings/warlocks/etc are a minority, and not a particularly threatening one (as showed by all of the "good ones" who toe the line and act like good little integrated citizens), people don't feel a need to act overtly against them. They've already won the war. What creates antagonism is disparity, envy, and fear. Not skincolor, gender, or tusks. Those are just identifiers, things you can use to categorize something in order to attack it. As a personal example, my character has gone from viewing aasimar positively to viewing them negatively, because their sheer commonality here on BG and the frequency in them being great influences on the events of the coast has resulted in a hatred born of envy. Tarina is just human, and can never compare to these blessed, perfect beings born of angels. My character discriminates against aasimar more than she discriminates against tieflings, because the aasimar characters have proven a greater threat to her sense of self than the tieflings have.


So, personally? While I think there is a definitely a setting-based problem in how little discrimination is given towards certain races/classes, I don't believe that 'RL sensibilities' are the main culprit. I feel it's more a product of the server community and the roleplay that has transpired. You can't force the kind of discrimination that people feel should be there. The world has to justify it. If it doesn't, then it won't be there. If it does, then it will. We do have discrimination on BG, that is not a problem. It is just not directed at the places where people feel it should be directed, as a result of the environment in which our characters are a part.

[Rhifox]

In short, to answer the OP directly: Don't worry about expectations. Just roleplay. React as your character would react to what you witness. If someone does things that make them hateable, people will hate them, and if they do a particularly good job at it they'll start naturally carrying that hate over to anyone that is like them (race, class, etc). If they do things that make them likeable, then they will be liked, and people will feel more positively about people like them.

[7threalm]

My main character is a full Gray-Orc Druid. The most 'hate' I ever get is;
1) People staring suspiciously.
2) One time someone tried to pick a fight. (Key note: Only one time)
3) A couple people throwing out insults.
4) MAJORITY: Ignore my race and just act like I'm normal.

In the first few years of my game play here there was a LOT more hatred for typical evil or suspicious races. What ended up happening is a few people began to cry discrimination and relate it to the real world. People began to distance themselves from any sort of racism because they did not want to hear people complain about it, despite it being completely valid and justified.

I'm guilty of continuing this trend as I find it hilarious to call myself a 'Social Justice Warpriest' who fights for equality for discriminated against Orcs. #OrcLivesMatter

While I dislike PvP, I do wish there would be more hostility and conflict created as a result to playing one of these races. We used to have the ethos of 'Tolerance is Treason' which was done to counter all of the people who wanted to hug and kiss Drow, but that fell off and people still continue to call it one of the most vile things due to the racism. (Despite it being completely valid)

hang out with pinkskins agronak will hunt you down

[Flasmix]

hang out with pinkskins agronak will hunt you down

Racist.

[Glowfire]

I play an aasimar and don't have particular expectations. I'd think appearance wise, the most noticeable thing about her are the facial tattoos, the aasimar traits are there if someone would look close but an uneducated eye may just assume it's half-elf blood. So I expect the tattoos to get more attention that the outsider blood, which has been quite true.

Most interactions are not going to be this. Characters who do discriminate are likely to keep it buried beneath a veneer of civility. There might be some obvious curtness in interactions, or suspicious glances, but there might not. That doesn't mean the discrimination is not happening. It just means that it's stewing.

Very much how my aasimar paladin is with elves, tieflings, orcs and anything else odd. Leads to some awkwardness time to time.

I think you've made good points with your post, Rhifox.

[Sputnik]

Racism was more prevalent on the server a few years ago. After the "Tolerance is Treason" propaganda campaign (beautifully done, that), even my half-orc would get hassled.
I personally loved it! It brought that FR fear factor into play and definitely helped with immersion.
Granted, it was difficult to group or get into more public RP at times, but c'est la vie! We dealt with it.

Nowadays, there is noticeably less, but it is still there. This, in my opinion is mostly due to a surprising number of characters of mistrusted or maligned races being exceptions to the norm. The well-read orc, the tiefling holy man, the drow pacifist. I've met them all!
That is not a complaint either; player characters have always been exceptional.

I should mention that for every 'snowflake', there is atleast one traditional character to balance things out. That applies to any race. Maybe they don't stick out as much, or are not as memorable in a way, but they're around!

My current tiefling character has faced ZERO discrimination, to my knowledge.
He doesn't have horns, but his amber eyes and pointed ears are obviously not human. His skin also has a ruddy complexion. Perhaps he's mistaken as a half-elf?
That's alright by me; he's a merchant and smooth sailing is profitable!
Still, if a bit of racist discrimination did happen, it would be refreshing and cetainly not bothersome. Roll with the punches, I say.

If your character is a racist, play it up. Sending a friendly tell letting the other player know it's strictly IC is always a good policy.

My 2cents.

::edit:: Some great points made already. Rhifox in particular nailed it, imo.

[Juramenta]

This thread inspired me to make a new character to fulfill all your discriminating and racist desires.

Meet Butch Von Base.
He is a true man's man.
His race will probably be a real man's man race like a Dwarf or Orc.
Obviously he will be male, simply because 50% of being a man's man requires you to be a man.
Second would be to not be a pansy race like an elf or something else that skips around all day crying for some attention.
I expect him to be either a druid or a monk, because a real man's man fights with his fists (or claws).

Of course will he be open to group up with others. So others can see how a real man's man handles business. A man's man faces everything head on. Unlike those insecure rogues who are always hiding in the shadows being afraid of being a man.

His alignment will probably be neutral, because a real man is too busy being a man to also concern himself with matters of good vs evil.
He obviously would never discriminate other far lesser races, as not everyone has the balls to be a true man's man race.

Obviously being born so special he must talk in the third person about himself.
Always referring to himself as The Butch.

[chad878262]

This thread inspired me to make a new character to fulfill all your discriminating and racist desires.

Meet Butch Von Base.
He is a true man's man.
His race will probably be a real man's man race like a Dwarf or Orc.
Obviously he will be male, simply because 50% of being a man's man requires you to be a man.
Second would be to not be a pansy race like an elf or something else that skips around all day crying for some attention.
I expect him to be either a druid or a monk, because a real man's man fights with his fists (or claws).

Of course will he be open to group up with others. So others can see how a real man's man handles business. A man's man faces everything head on. Unlike those insecure rogues who are always hiding in the shadows being afraid of being a man.

His alignment will probably be neutral, because a real man is too busy being a man to also concern himself with matters of good vs evil.
He obviously would never discriminate other far lesser races, as not everyone has the balls to be a true man's man race.

Obviously being born so special he must talk in the third person about himself.
Always referring to himself as The Butch.

Why you gotta be so sexist?

Sorry, couldn't help it, I'll go now. However, this is so funny I had to comment. Great stuff

[Juramenta]

Why you gotta be so sexist?

Oh sorry I missed what you where saying, I was to busy flexing these guns *He says while admiring his own biceps.
You said something about women wanting me? Maybe if you start lifting some weights you will get a woman too like The Butch here. Well maybe...when I am done with her.

So what where you saying again? Something about sex and The Butch?

[Flasmix]

Well Butch, let me introduce you to Neutral Evil. It's not focused on evil at all, but doing what's best only for yourself. You can be cool or a jerk, whatever benefits you the most.