Make Self-Concealment Great Again!

[Sun Wukong]

This is the nwn2 wikia entry for it:

This feat is void and no longer exists.

Type of feat

• General, Epic

Prerequisite

• Character level 21, Dexterity 30+, Hide 30, Tumble 30, Improved Evasion

Required for

• None

Specifics

Attacks against you have a 10% chance to miss automatically. This feat may be taken multiple times, to a maximum of 50%.

Use

• Automatic

But the funny thing is, you can actually get this feat on NWN2, and on this server. You can make a character that qualifies for it. However, since we do not have 40 levels to spare like we did in NWN1, there is no way to get all 5 feats for that 50% concealment and it is simply due to the requirements.

For starters, 30 Dexterity, requires you to start with a +2 dexterity race just to get the starting dexterityscore of 20. With ability increases alone, at character level 27, you will have dexterity ability score of 26. Therefore, you must spend your level 21, 23, and 25 epic bonus feats on Great Dexterity and then use whatever epic bonus feat you got to reach 30 dexterity.

Now, secondly, the skill requirements are all 30. Therefore, the soonest you can meet these skill requirements is at level 27. Therefore, the only levels you can actually take a Self-Concealment feat are 27, 28, 29, and 30. You get epic feats at levels 27 and 29 and as before, to get more you require epic bonus feats of some source.

Finally, these feats require Improved Evasion. Monks get it at level 9, Shadowdancers at level 10, and Rogues could get it as a bonus 'Special Ability' feat starting at level 10, 13, 16, or 19.

So here is a little brainpuzzle for you to think about, try to figure out a way to get as many Self-Concealment feats as humanly possible.

The answer is inside this spoiler tag:

Hidden: show

On this server, with the 3 by 20 rule, you can get 40% Self-Concealment with a Monk 11/Rogue 19 build. You start with 11 levels of monk and finish with 19 levels of Rogue because doing it this way allows you take all your rogue 'Special Ability' feats on the epic levels.

You do not have HiPS. You cannot have Epic Precision to overcome sneak attack Immunity. But you do have 31 base dexterity and one epic feat to spare. A feat which you could spend on Crippling Strike, One-Shot, or Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting. Monk's Greater Flurry with Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting with dual Kamas might work while flanking, but if you want to do that, Monk 11/Assassin 9/Rogue 10 already does it far better.


Without the 3 by 20 rule, you could make a Monk 10/Rogue 19/Shadowdancer 1 build and at least get HiPS. Wait... What do you know... You could actually make a Monk 11/Shadowdancer 3/Rogue 16 and still get that 40% Self-Concealment with HiPS - but doing that makes you lose your one spare epic bonus feat. So no Crippling Strike, One Shot, or Perfect Two Weapon fighting. And once again, a Monk 11/Assassin 9/Rogue 10 build already does the same far better.

[Sun Wukong]

Oh, yeah, if Self-Concealment's requirements were lowered, it could provide those super squishy dedicated sneakers slightly more survivability. Oh and, one pre-epic feat brings that 50% concealment down to 25%~ It can be added to select mobs if it is not already on them.

[Sun Wukong]

No one has commented...

Should this thing have a poll?

Should Self-Concealment requirements be lowered?
Yes/No?

[Theodore01]

yay, lower it.

Would love to use it and see that toon be useful for more than just running away.

[metaquad4]

Make it 23 DEX, and require improved evasion as well as 24 tumble. I don't think it'll be that OP. It still requires a 5 epic feat investment, which is HUGE. I'd almost even say make it a pre-epic feat. Considering those 5 feats amount to something a wand or a cloak (or a team mate) can cast.

[Tsidkenu]

You can get 40% within 30 levels which is still not bad.

You don't need to have +50% to still be reasonably effective.

Also, the above build would be a -really- annoying Xbow sniper rogue. Could actually be fun to play.

[metaquad4]

In the case of the above build, self-concealment generally isn't what makes the build hard to catch. HiPs is. And with its low AB and significant sneak attack damage, it will most certainly need to HiPs. In order to maximize its damage output, it will HiPs dance. And in doing so, it will rarely if ever get hit. Self-Concealment has little to do with that build's functionality. Even if it is caught, it is hardy enough and will have enough AC to survive a few hits while it resumes kiting and hipsing.

Self-Concealment doesn't make that build what it is. Its just a side-gimmick that will give it a small boost in rare, niche situations.

Without Self-Concealment, it is far more effective. It'll drain strength upon sneak attacks, have the ability to sneak attack undead, and it'll have higher AB to boot (or higher sneak attack, if those feats are taken).

[Tsidkenu]

Crippling strike does not work with ranged weapons, although Epic Precision does and would be a significant boost to this build at the cost of 2 epic concealments.

And yes, of course other sniper builds will be more effective. The challenge when I made that one was 1. Maximum possible self concealment and 2. Something that could possibly survive BG's gruelling levelling process. I believe it passes on both counts. Is it the best possible rogue sniper? No way.

[metaquad4]

True. But, this does not make Self-Concealment a good feat investment. Which, in this discussion post, I believe is the point.

And, I didn't know that about crippling strike. Thank you! You learn something new every day.

--------

As far as self-concealment goes, perhaps making it a pre-epic feat line would be a good option. It'll still be a significant investment, and it should still require dex, tumble, improved evasion, and perhaps hide as well. I am thinking perhaps:

Improved Evasion (limiting it to certain class combos), 21 DEX, 15 Tumble, 15 Hide.

I don't think it'll be OP, considering that the same effect can be replicated with the right items instead of 5 feats. And for classes that get improved evasion, 5 feats alone is a massive investment. Too massive to be worth it while these feats remain epic feats, in my thoughts.

-----

An alternative idea is to condense these feats and increase them past 50% concealment. Keep the current requirements, and change the progression to:

Requirements: 30 DEX, Improved Evasion, 30 Hide, 30 Tumble

Feat 1: 20% Concealment
Feat 2: 40% Concealment
Feat 3: 60% Concealment

What do you think of that alternative idea?

[Sun Wukong]

An alternative idea is to condense these feats and increase them past 50% concealment. Keep the current requirements, and change the progression to:

Requirements: 30 DEX, Improved Evasion, 30 Hide, 30 Tumble

Feat 1: 20% Concealment
Feat 2: 40% Concealment
Feat 3: 60% Concealment

What do you think of that alternative idea?

Or how about 10%, 30%, and 50%.

[Maecius]

There's actually a very similar conversation to this one going on in QC right now. Something must have triggered everyone to start thinking about self-concealment? Either that or it's just coincidental timing.

[metaquad4]

An alternative idea is to condense these feats and increase them past 50% concealment. Keep the current requirements, and change the progression to:

Requirements: 30 DEX, Improved Evasion, 30 Hide, 30 Tumble

Feat 1: 20% Concealment
Feat 2: 40% Concealment
Feat 3: 60% Concealment

What do you think of that alternative idea?

Or how about 10%, 30%, and 50%.

Because its still overshadowed by no investment and UMD. This way, we could at-least say that its slightly stronger than that. 50% or 60% would work, but that is my thought on it.

[chad878262]

overshadowed how? 50% concealment which is always on and cannot be dispelled vs. a charged wand or 3/day cloak that provides 54 seconds / use and can be dispelled... I would say there is at minimum reason to consider the feats. They're there if you are surprised, they are there while you are grinding through mobs (you don't have anything to 'save' for a boss fight) and they remain there if you get hit by a dispel or a breach.

Sure, anyone can get the same with an item or a wand (no UMD needed for the item), but they only get it, essentially for boss fights or if they have the time to prepare before pvp. The feats are there no matter what, all the time.

[metaquad4]

L2P issues, I suppose. It could serve as a crutch. When you need concealment, you can use UMD for it. Most times you won't need it since you'll probably have HiPs if you are building for the requirements it asks for. If you don't have HiPs and need it. . .well, I'd like to see that build so I can make it not need it (unless its some odd janky build that is effective and needs it. In which case, more power to you!).

Dispels are not an issue for short-lasting spells, since the UMD caster should always been prepared to have to cast those kinds of spells again. If they aren't prepared to cast it again should it run out (they run out fast) or be dispelled. . .that is another l2p issue that can be corrected.

Again, 50% or 60% could be ok. 10%/5% isn't too much of a difference.

[chad878262]

I don't see it as a L2P issue so much as supporting different styles of play. There ARE players out there that don't cross class UMD because it doesn't make sense for the character. There ARE players that would simply prefer to have something like this always on vs. say taking 3 - 5 Great Dexterity's...Maybe they don't have the pre-reqs for epic dodge and would benefit, who knows.

Point being, we generally don't consider introducing changes to make feats more powerful than what is already available, but to give fun options that can make different building ideas viable.

Nothing you say is inaccurate, concealment is available on a cloak or a wand and thus should never be prioritized as a feat line, unless a player simply doesn't want to build with that in mind. Maybe they have an epic cloak they want to use and don't feel it is right to switch out slots. Not for us to judge, but the fact remains that SC will not overtake anything as 'the building choice' but hopefully we come up with options that make it A building choice.