Need help with last feat - 2 handed dexer

[Egg Shen]

So I've got a pretty fun and capable build with a free feat at level 29. Maybe some of you can help me decide, as I'm just not sure.

It's half stand-up swordsman, half HIPSter rogue. He's a dexer who two-hands a shortsword and uses Intel for damage. At six attacks per round, and typically only the first two out of stealth doing sneak damage as he doesn't have feint or anything, what sounds like a better feat; Low Blow or Deadly Defense?

I typically have either combat expertise or improved combat expertise active, so for the most part, Deadly Defense is just an extra 1-4 damage per hit. With an AB fluctuating between high 30's low 40's (depending on which mode I have active), does the additional damage add up to be comparable to Low Blow.

Low blow will typically cost me my 6th and lowest AB attack (unless I want to push a combat clickable like expose weakness or flourish into my 5th attack slot), but give me a much more likely chance to hit with my 5th attack, and give me an extra sneak attack per round that I wouldn't otherwise have. I only have 7d6 in sneak attack. So an extra 20ish damage per round on average I guess? Certainly seems like more damage, but giving up that 6th attack seems questionable.

There are probably other options as well (armor skin? stealthy? some other interesting feat I'm not familiar with?).

Thoughts?

[chad878262]

If you have high bluff (and don't mind dropping a rather large fortune to get bluff gear in every slot) Feint sounds like the biggest win IMO... Why get an extra 1-4 damage from deadly defense when you can land more sneak attacks? Even if you only do ~20 damage per sneak attack if you can get a Bluff score in the range of 70-80 that should make you very consistent with Feint.

[Egg Shen]

That ship has already sailed. This guy is currently holding off on his 29th level until I get this sorted. It's not a conceptual build. I just didn't have enough skill points to get bluff maxed, so I disregarded feint as an option.

[chad878262]

would be easier to comment on a full build, I assume you already have the one hander feat?

[Egg Shen]

I don't think it will work. He wields his blade with two hands in order to get 1.5x intel bonus. Unless I'm reading that feat wrong?

[chad878262]

One Hander works when wielding in two hands.

[Egg Shen]

Interesting. I assumed the "nothing in your off hand" component of the feat would prohibit me from taking it. Is that hands down better than the other options, do you think?

*Edit* Man, there is a lot going on with that feat. So, I get the +1 dodge AC no matter what, right? All the other benefits only show up if I 'secretly' roll a 17 or higher on a d20. How often does that roll take place? Do I get to choose which benefit I want, or is it random?

[Sun Wukong]

I have not used Low Blow myself, so take my opinion with a grain of salt...

But based on the description found here: http://bgtscc.wikia.com/wiki/Low_Blow

As a full-round action, you can enter an area occupied by an opponent who is at least one size category larger than you. You can then make a single melee attack at your highest attack bonus against this creature, who is considered flat-footed against the attack. After your attack, you return to the 5-foot square from which you entered the opponent's square. Using this feat does not provoke an attack of opperunity.

If you are not playing a halfling or a gnome, then Low Blow will only work against giants. Trolls, ogres, giants, etc...

As for how that attack works, I would imagine that it is going to be just like Pommel Strike. In otherwords, you create a duplicate that makes a single attack and that is all your character does for entire one round.

I could be wrong... If some has actual first hand experience, please, do correct me.

But if my understanding of things is correct, then the Deadly Defense feat sounds like the better option over all.

And um, since you are ready to take your 29th level, it is actually an opportunity for you to try out both feats yourself. How? First you level up and take Low Blow. You try it out, and if it is terrible, you contact a DM and request them to take away enough experience points to take your character down a single level. You just request them to remove a specific amount of experience points, something that keeps your character within 1-50 points away from leveling up again. This way you can try out both.


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As for One Hander, I do not think it works with a two-weapon dexer.

One-handed = only one weapon, could have a shield.

Two-handed = only one weapon, but both hands are used to get 1.5 multiplier to strength modifier.

Two-weapon = you have a weapon in both hands.

I guess there is just a mixup with the terminology here.


Edit: scratch that, I guess it is my own brain that is at fault here...

One Hander sounds like a good feat... Little extra AC and some other perks every two rounds.

[Theodore01]

One Hander works when wielding in two hands.

The question to ask here is - will that bug get fixed ?

[chad878262]

The question to ask here is - will that bug get fixed ?

Doubt it. There were some discussions about allowing it to work with large/two-handed weapons, though I am not sure if anything was done regarding that so I can't comment on it directly.

[Sun Wukong]

One Hander works when wielding in two hands.

The question to ask here is - will that bug get fixed ?

I do not think that it will, at least not without first figuring out a way to let players choose when they get their 1,5*strength modifier added as damage. Currently, you automatically get it unless your weapon is small enough.

Another example would be Duelist's Precise Strike. It should only work with light or one handed piercing weapons, but it works with a spear. And you cannot really ban the spear because you could use that spear one-handedly with monkey grip, but again, the game doesn't really let you choose...

[Egg Shen]

I have not used Low Blow myself, so take my opinion with a grain of salt...

But based on the description found here: http://bgtscc.wikia.com/wiki/Low_Blow

As a full-round action, you can enter an area occupied by an opponent who is at least one size category larger than you. You can then make a single melee attack at your highest attack bonus against this creature, who is considered flat-footed against the attack. After your attack, you return to the 5-foot square from which you entered the opponent's square. Using this feat does not provoke an attack of opperunity.

If you are not playing a halfling or a gnome, then Low Blow will only work against giants. Trolls, ogres, giants, etc...

As for how that attack works, I would imagine that it is going to be just like Pommel Strike. In otherwords, you create a duplicate that makes a single attack and that is all your character does for entire one round.

I could be wrong... If some has actual first hand experience, please, do correct me.

But if my understanding of things is correct, then the Deadly Defense feat sounds like the better option over all.

...SNIP...

One Hander sounds like a good feat... Little extra AC and some other perks every two rounds.

I think your understanding of the Low Blow feat is correct. I am a halfling, so it would be functional in most cases, both pve & pvp.

As for the one-hander feat, I'm definitely liking the sound of it. I'm a sucker for AC, so the +1 dodge is right up my alley. But how do you know the perks get rolled every 2 rounds? I was wondering about the mechanics behind it. And rolling a 17 just to get any perk at all means that 80% of the time nothing is active? Or is it modified by tumble, so I'm pretty much always going to have one of those perks active?

[Sun Wukong]

I do not, I just quickly read the bgtscc wikia description.

If you possess the Feint feat its cooldown will reset freely once in a twelve second period. If you roll a 17 or higher during combat (unrelated to attacks, secretly rolled) you perform a tumble skill check for one of several one handed maneuvers.

You may perform an acrobatic dodge (+4 tumble, +2 dodge AC two rounds), a weaving assault (+d4 AB two rounds), insightful footwork (+4 dodge AC one round), a deflecting sweep (1 Deflection AC, +1 for every ten parry ranks, two rounds), or an off-hand swap (+4 bluff, feint reset).

And those two lines just make me think that either you get the feint reset twice in two round period, or that something is just going on every two rounds.

But anyhow, it is +1 AC and more occasionally. Better than Armor Skin.

[Egg Shen]

Yeah, definitely better than Armor Skin, but is it better than the other two feats we're discussing?

So, theorycrafting based on unclear descriptions leads us to believe that when activated, we always get a +1 AC. Then, once every two rounds (even though "insightful footwork" specifically mentions only giving a one round bonus), a roll is made behind the scenes. 17 or better (assuming an unmodified d20 here??) and we get a bonus based on a tumble check, although we have no idea what the DC is for each effect in question.

For my specific build, two of the effects are pointless. I don't have feint, so the reset of the feint feat and the +4 to bluff from "off-hand swap" don't help me. Nor does the deflection boost from "deflecting sweep" as I already get a +5 deflection from Duelist + 30 ranks parry.

80% of the time it's just a +1 AC. Of the 20% of the time I get a boost, 40% of the time the boost is useless. It sounds like it's a mode. Is it? If it is, does it work in conjunction with other modes like CE/ICE?

Even with all the uncertainty, I think it's still on par with Low Blow and Deadly Defense. Of course, if anybody actually understands the mechanics behind it, I implore you to educate me.

[Sun Wukong]

It does sound like a mode, and just like with other custom modes, you should be able to use it with CE and ICE.