thought of the day on tanks

[aaron22]

i guess where this...

OMG do we even realize this is BG specific? No where else do players have a MAIN and ALTERNATE...

falls apart for me is the

No where

. having a main and alt is the SOP for rpg's. in the mmorpg guilds i played with. when i played for end game raid guilds. We specifically had mains. only mains could participate in end game raiding unless we were requested to switch to an alt or box in an alt to fill holes. switching mains was not always "allowed". and this is specific to end game raiding guilds, but switching mains could get you expelled from the guild or end game raids if not approved. setting a main and alts is very standard in gaming.

edit: this is where us and them are very very different. before a dm event, a guild leader will not ask me to hop on my alt because we already have 2 archers and we dont have enough tanks. there is a RP aspect that overrides the OOC mechanics and with a live DM, the event can be adjusted to challenge a weakened or unbalanced group of adventures and provide the same effect.

[404ninja]

I recently made and heavily played a defensive Man at Arms and while I enjoyed the gameplay of managing mobs and throwing heal kits around as needed I never felt like I had a ton of options to me outside of single classing. I had focused on the taunts for the class and I attempted multiclassing, with 4 levels of paladin if felt as if my DC was at the point where consistency felt lacking. I was unable to deal damage or really solo content and without some buffs casters would ruin my day. I had reached the point where my character choices had become meaningless filler (weapon focus and Knockdown were my last two feat choices before epics) and I became disinterested and the people I was playing with hit the XP grind at the late teens decided to run off to other games.

The base class that is touted as a defensive class has two viable options in my eyes. Either go Defensive Agro Manger focusing on Mocking Challenge, AC, and include Fast Healing and DR if you can and sacrifice DPS, carrying capacity, and the ability to solo content. Or Focus Challenge and go for a combat based M@A and get AC up to the bare minimum for being usable for content while focusing on your melee style of choice. The inherent problem with both of these routes is they require the DC of the class to be competitive with casters. Since most melee stats are on the physical half of the stat pool investing in charisma is a hinderance.

There are a few things that could make the class or make playing a defensive character a little easier and a little more enjoyable to play. Not having all the challenges be on the same timer was not a fun experience for myself, I never felt like I had options with them and was stuck using just one. Guarding the Lord being given a slow regen option to gain them back passively would encouraging to use it more, more often than not I would drop it on a DPS that after that fight would run out of range and end the ability prematurely. Adding Ability Focus- Man at Arms Challenges would encourage me to multiclass deeper than a 3-4 level splash in a class. Shield Focus/Shield Specialisation lines that add AC similar to the weapon/armour focus line would be a nice defensive bonus to all shield fighters.

[aaron22]

but i should digress. this is about tanks and actually me comparing any other mmorpg to this game puts forth an example of something i think is a mistake in thought. BGtSCC doesnt really work the same as other MMORPG's. we have the same fantasy elements, group play, killing monsters for loot and xp, and classes that have the same names and similar play styles, but that is about where it ends. the mechanics of the games are very different. tank, dps, heals, and support are roles and do not need to be specified and narrowed into classes. i play mostly melee and they are much more in line with a dps role than tank role. in most MMORPG's a druid is a squishy healer. here they preform well as tanks. a mage can be dps, tank or support depending upon which spells you have memorized. this is what makes this game fun and different. we also need to take into account that most MMORPG's dont have a spell/day setup and spell duration that are as long. its just an all around different animal. with that said, i would like to see a more level playing field in all aspects, but only because the OOC mechanics play such a role in the thinking of the players in RP. to not think that a DD could not gather a couple players to help through one of the tougher dungeons as a F30 could is naive. this is a game where the RP plays a big role. and there is a who you know not what you know that gets alot of people (including me) alot further in the game than other wise would/should.

[dedude]

If this game locked our classes into specific roles ala most/all mmo's I for one probably wouldn't be playing it. I love the fact that there are so many different build options across all classes, and that builds aren't equal in power or lore. That said, I also think there is room for adding things to help those building for a tank role, no matter the class(es). Like feats for controlling aggro, grappling/entangling your opponent, slowing them, etc. I know we have feats already for some of that, but maybe they need to be buffed a bit?

[aaron22]

If this game locked our classes into specific roles ala most/all mmo's I for one probably wouldn't be playing it. I love the fact that there are so many different build options across all classes, and that builds aren't equal in power or lore.

that is what i was trying to say and hope it didnt come off as the opposite.

you also have to consider there is a huge gap in L2P when it comes to playing the top tier classes. and this should come into play with tanking. tanking should be hard. a good tank should be skilled in tanking, that is how wizards are. a well played wizard is far and away better then joe shmo wizard. this, in degrees, applies to every class. and i would really consider it a disservice if tanking became the exception. i would not enjoy if a new player came in grinded 30 and was then totally capable of tanking the white with a group of high dps wrecking its HP's. skill (character sheet and player) and gear should make this possible. not just a couple feats of click 1 and 2 and watch me hold aggro on all these mobs including the epic smart and experienced white.

[MopKnight]

You ought to play 5e

[Steve]

This idea will help, I think, with that issue Steve.

The redefine statement was a slight bitty bit tongue and cheek. But yeah, isn't it nice to have a Mission Statement and...make it so!!

But metaquad4, I like your ideas. I very much realize that a "reward" granted through play, is really why most people take up the challenge of a game—besides "winning," —and here I agree with Invoker—this is a game for cooperative play, EVEN IF that cooperation is through competition. So, in order to really experience progression and reward, one has to have opportunities...in various ways, such that are created to support the direction the "gamemaster" wants to guide Players through.

BGTSCC succeeds in general for being quite open and supportive of all types of play. However, if it is called a RP Server, there simply needs to be GREATER rewards for RP, than grinding/looting/etc.

...because of the way you and other head DMs and DMs have shaped it Steve be proud of that!

Ha! Well, I appreciate the recognition, but...there was a really BIG PICTURE I wanted to promote and enact for the Server, but unfortunately, I had too many disagreements with Luna to see them come to fruition. Not like they were all great, but yeah, some would have really made the Server a more RP Server than a MMO (in my humble opinion).

Nevertheless, and I still fully believe this, that BGTSCC is magnificent in that it does give a unique RPG environment that cannot be found anywhere else (atm). It is, really, the stories and the role-play and the community. However, all that is fragile and can become buried under the technical, OOC and mechanical aspects, to such a degree that many fail to find the RP they have come looking for on BGTSCC.

There should not just and always be a mechanical answer to every "problem." And, everything should not be an OOC presentation of information gathered and...further presented OOC. Far too much of that is prevalent on these Forums, and, that DIRECTLY effects the IG experience (again, in my humble opinion).

Being informative is one thing; solving the experience of the Server through numbers is another.

[Theodore01]

However, if it is called a RP Server, there simply needs to be GREATER rewards for RP, than grinding/looting/etc.

I agree - just reward good RPers with 3 empty steins.

[Calodan]

BGTSCC succeeds in general for being quite open and supportive of all types of play. However, if it is called a RP Server, there simply needs to be GREATER rewards for RP, than grinding/looting/etc.

The problem with this is that DMs arbitrarily award things differently to players here for this. For me I work my arse off in RP for all sorts of things. I have not seen the level of RP reward that other players have for beating a really hard monster 1 time in an event. In fact I think I have seen 1 RP reward and it is was subpar compared to others that people have. I have come to accept that I do not get that level of reward because I am an (hero). So whatev. Still though I would be down for this if the rewards were indeed good but so far anything I really work towards is pretty much shut down. Recently I have been getting more events for the guild I am trying to run but that if for them not me. I run that guild because I have time and can do it. I can coordinate the RP for others and try to bring others in. However it does suck to be told the greatest rewards are for great RP. So far I feel like the worst RPer in the world cause I have been here 4 years and nothing like people who came after me or at the same time. So yeah I get a little salty about statements like this because so far they are not true from real world experience here on this server.

[chad878262]

DM's could reward 'tokens' as opposed to actual item rewards. Then there could be specific equipment or upgrades that you can get to equipment that costs a set number of these tokens. I think I read that as a suggestion on these forums before and thought it was a neat idea. No favoritism, nothing arbitrary. One event, you can get X number of XP or token... Long term events, you get x amount of tokens.

[Calodan]

DM's could reward 'tokens' as opposed to actual item rewards. Then there could be specific equipment or upgrades that you can get to equipment that costs a set number of these tokens. I think I read that as a suggestion on these forums before and thought it was a neat idea. No favoritism, nothing arbitrary. One event, you can get X number of XP or token... Long term events, you get x amount of tokens.

DB server did this. With tokens you can put set rewards and each token is worth so much. We would have to make tokens non transferrable though or they would become the new currency of the realm and gold would be worth absolutely shite. Players could choose between a token and or gold or XP for their reward. 2k XP/hour 2k gold/hour or 1 token/hour. Easy reward.

[metaquad4]

Either DB or Haven's way, yeah. Haven's was more automated.

(On Haven) At the end of every event, they would award a (series of) token(s). Then, you could spend these tokens on a series of rewards (item rewards on Haven).

For us, these rewards could be given via the DMF1 toolbar. They could encompass items no better than what is available normally. They could also have a minimum quality of +3 with additional stats. If we use the DMF1 toolbar, we could also make these tokens reward XP or Gold.

If a DM doesn't reward something event specific to each player, they could instead reward these tokens. Then, players could choose if they want additional XP, gold, or an item (gold/items could have been found in chests during the event, or whatever else the imagination decides to conjure for RP).

Favoritism wouldn't be an issue. It could just be made standard issue for 1 token to be given at the end of an event to each player, in addition to the standard xp (or gold, if the character is level 30). OFC, if a player earned an useful item specifically from the event, then that would take the place of their token reward (but that is usually fairly rare).

[WhatsInTheBox]

I have won PvP encounters playing both sides.

Those saying you need to be a caster to win a PvP cannot PvP at all.

You need consumables to win PvP. And then, you just win. Simple as that.

PvP in this game isn't good at all, and nobody intersted in teabagging people should play this game. As I said before, when I want to shred my fellow gamers, I play DotA. This is a cooperative game.[/quote]

I am aware I can win in PvP through sheer amount of coin spent in consumables and wands but thats pretty cheesy and lame. PvP isn't just about "pwning" your fellow gamers it has a serious impact on your character in most cases and carries emotional weight. Being that its so much more important than say just a match of DoTA2 or LoL is why I care about doing well in it that much more!

[Kagger911]

emotional weight.

You're getting ooc and Ic confused if you're getting emotional over a character dying. Roll with the punches. I've also noticed how this isn't about pvp or pve it's about the tank not being a tank anymore because I have noticed two things.

To be a tank you have to have the lowest ac in a group because the mobs flood to the one with lowest ac attacking them. Which sure, it's thinking backwards because taunt doesn't really taunt. Meaning you need a high hp pool character with regenerative abilities. Which none can be done with fighters tanks, as they will be getting the nerf to expose.

We can argue for argument sake that fighters are not tanks.

[chad878262]

You're getting ooc and Ic confused if you're getting emotional over a character dying. Roll with the punches. I've also noticed how this isn't about pvp or pve it's about the tank not being a tank anymore because I have noticed two things.

To be a tank you have to have the lowest ac in a group because the mobs flood to the one with lowest ac attacking them. Which sure, it's thinking backwards because taunt doesn't really taunt. Meaning you need a high hp pool character with regenerative abilities. Which none can be done with fighters tanks, as they will be getting the nerf to expose.

We can argue for argument sake that fighters are not tanks.

Fighter levels can sure make it easier to take DR feats and Fast Healing feats. Though this does bring up an issue that perhaps those feats should be added to the Fighter bonus feat list. Honestly, with all the custom combat styles and other enhancements adding the various combat specific feats to the fighter bonus feat list would be a good change to enhance versatility for the class.