thought of the day on tanks

[AC81]

Most DD's are about to get a taste of the nerf bat, including Karond's. The changes to evasion and expose weakness will see to that.

I still think bards make the best tanks IN THIS GAME. They can avoid damage, reduce damage, hold aggro (which is key), heal damage and dish it out all at the same time.

[7threalm]

points to displacment and mirror image combo in relation to bard tanking abilities

but i dont think there are many dd's left , at least i havent seen any running around in a good minute

20 minutes to kill frost king, or 5 mins with a barbarian lets do the math, dd are dying breed, there are so many other better combos.

[aaron22]

My bard does a very good job tanking.

[7threalm]

bards will most likely be outdone by bladesingers, I can already tell they are going to be very strong, and they also have access to a certain combination displac/mirror. With nice bab and spells to fall back on.

I see alot of elves being made in the near future as well as drow, which is good for drow

[Vogar Eol]

Aaron, the problem I think you and many others have is expecting absolutely everything from one build. Some very good and creative builds can do a whole lot, so that's understandable.

However, a Tank is about defense. You expect it to hold agro, be invincible, and deal damage. I don't. I'm fine with it being able to carry out the bodies of the rest of the party who died because they were squishy. To me, that defines a Tank.

In other games, namely Eve Online, a huge buffer tank was good enough. Careful maneuvering was used to force agro. Here that translates into using doors, hallways, and other map features.

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Let me tell you the story of two elves and a dwarf. This happened in game about a month ago. Was playing on an approximately level 10 Dwarf, very high Con and great AC. The two elves had bows. I met them in the goblin ruins, and they thought I was twice their level just from the HP in party.

They did -NOT- want to face the goblin shaman. They kept RP'ing that my Dwarf shouldn't go down that hallway. I played the stubborn Dwarf, but they followed for some reason. The shaman spawned in one of the larger chest rooms, with his usual adds and the three or four additional goblins from that room. Probably 8 or more enemies. The elves screamed, "Run!"

And run they did. Meanwhile, I planted my Dwarf in the hall just in front of the doorway. Only one goblin could enter the doorway to fight me, but there wasn't enough room for it to slip into the hallway. Using my lower then normal for a fighter Strength, I started working on axing the goblins. Eventually the elves came back, and started using their bows while I held back the enemy.

Did I need any damage output? No, the elves did most of the damage. Did I need an agro pulling skill? No, the skill was in the player. Did I need any fancy skills? No, I had lots of HP and AC for my CR, but had not yet taken a single level of DD.

What you /NEED/ and /WANT/ are not the same things. You can settle for one good defense and one good offense. That's all you need. You don't have to excell at everything to be playable, especially in a teambased cooperative roleplay environment.

[aaron22]

That's a good tale and fitting for the situation. If you want truly defense only, then a DD can be built to be just that. What I define as better is just better. Defense saves and dps. That is better. The only classes that can do that are fvs bard and dd. I don't play a dwarf anymore. The rp is not for me. But a DD can match all but SS gish and druid in defense. But at the same token be non dependent on magic and or rest. And oh the long buff times.

And your tactic is fine with range behind you, but what if you had melee dps with you. You just blocked your deeps out of the fight. A good tank would engage and turn so if adds walked up they lead in target the tank not the rogue trying to grab some sa hits. Pushing slightly through the doorway would trap one or two at most between you and the dps but most would be engaged with you and that is the best that is possible without aggro control . At higher levels you can put down a kd or Ikd on one to further limit the peal. Also archers are the easiest to keep aggro off if they don't get happy with the bow early and know to get positioning down. It's up to them on that though. A hipser is also in control of its aggro. But positioning is what separates tanking here.

[ARHicks00]

Most DD's are about to get a taste of the nerf bat, including Karond's. The changes to evasion and expose weakness will see to that.

Why fix something that isn't broke? (Yes i know it is bugged but in a good way) The nerf to evasion and expose weakness, would eliminate an assload of melee builds and discourage a lot of players as well as building melee builds. That would be like removing all persistent spells from the spell list making the feat useless. (Which Dalelands sort did along with Dragon Coast)

Nerfing stuff does not balance the server. In fact, DnD and NWN was never created with the intend of balance. It took me to DM a game myself, playing as a PnP character, trying to make my own server back in NwN1, and PvPing in NWN, and reading up on the history of DnD that the DnD/NWN was not meant to be balanced. There is no rock paper scissors formula. The only thing nerfing does is make the existing balance worse than what it is. Mind i can understand twinking certain spells so they are not a Deus Ex Machina of spells like the Bigby spell series has become, but that to prevent avoidable exploitations of weakness.

I did not get evasion for powergaming purposes, but to have less venues to get burned. I rather be able to focus my heals on players than myself. Without evasion, you can burn a melee build with maximum spell damage even on a full save. You can kill a fighter in 7 fireballs or 5 ice storms. Hell, as a rogue or ranger i can plant traps all day and burn my opponents whether they save or not. I did not get evasion to cheat, but to prevent unavoidable exploitation of rather easy burn methods.

[Vogar Eol]

That's a good tale and fitting for the situation. If you want truly defense only, then a DD can be built to be just that. What I define as better is just better. Defense saves and dps. That is better. The only classes that can do that are fvs bard and dd. I don't play a dwarf anymore. The rp is not for me. But a DD can match all but SS gish and druid in defense. But at the same token be non dependent on magic and or rest. And oh the long buff times.

And your tactic is fine with range behind you, but what if you had melee dps with you. You just blocked your deeps out of the fight. A good tank would engage and turn so if adds walked up they lead in target the tank not the rogue trying to grab some sa hits. Pushing slightly through the doorway would trap one or two at most between you and the dps but most would be engaged with you and that is the best that is possible without aggro control . At higher levels you can put down a kd or Ikd on one to further limit the peal. Also archers are the easiest to keep aggro off if they don't get happy with the bow early and know to get positioning down. It's up to them on that though. A hipser is also in control of its aggro. But positioning is what separates tanking here.

If I had melee DPS, the thing to do would have been to step about six inches further backwards. Then one goblin at a time steps into three DPS'ers flanking it. At that point, having a tank is much less important. You simply DPS the encounter the same way 300 Spartans once stood at Thermopylae.

My point with the Barbarian build is simply that a Barbarian can be built with pure defense in mind too. Want higher tumble, spellcraft, more fun toys? Add in a four level dip and lose 1/- DR, and maybe a Bonus Feat from Barb 30 depending on the dip. 17/- is HUGE.

You can spend a whole lot of time trying to be good at everything, just to end up mediocre in everything. Most of it is the player.

[WhatsInTheBox]

emotional weight.

You're getting ooc and Ic confused if you're getting emotional over a character dying. Roll with the punches. I've also noticed how this isn't about pvp or pve it's about the tank not being a tank anymore because I have noticed two things.

To be a tank you have to have the lowest ac in a group because the mobs flood to the one with lowest ac attacking them. Which sure, it's thinking backwards because taunt doesn't really taunt. Meaning you need a high hp pool character with regenerative abilities. Which none can be done with fighters tanks, as they will be getting the nerf to expose.

We can argue for argument sake that fighters are not tanks.

I'd say you are missing out on all the joys of roleplaying if you aren't emotionally invested in your characters. If RP is just emotionless text and you going through the motions you are missing out. RP is like your favorite book with you in the driver seat for how the story will turn out based on the decisions you make so it SUCKS if you get stomped in every confrontation because of a power imbalance.

Just because I'm emotionally invested in my characters story doesn't mean I need to win all the time or that I'm going to rage on someone for beating me in PvP but when you know you lost because of something being OP ... it puts a damper on the RP.




Also just as a PSA ... you can totally tank in NWN if the numbers are small enough it just takes a cooperative group that lets you run in first and gather up whatever monsters you are going to be fighting in that particular pull and get as CLOSE to them as possible. Use WSAD to get closer than where you'd stand if you just clicked. Monsters will attack you then. Ask Derfel's player , I showed him how to do it.

[Calodan]

I'd say you are missing out on all the joys of roleplaying if you aren't emotionally invested in your characters. If RP is just emotionless text and you going through the motions you are missing out. RP is like your favorite book with you in the driver seat for how the story will turn out based on the decisions you make so it SUCKS if you get stomped in every confrontation because of a power imbalance.

Getting emotionally invested into a bit of electronic data is not healthy at all. Furthermore power imbalance is a part of D&D. People need to go read the rules and lore of this game before they start kicking tires on balance all the time. It is just not part of the D&D realm. Nor should it be. Some people. Some classes are just better than others. This is a fact of life too. Not everyone is the same talent. Otherwise I would be playing football for a few mill a year.

You might want to get used to getting stomped in power imbalance if you keep trying to do things that your build is not suited to do. That is kind of how life works and how D&D works too. If I am only 100 lbs I am probably not going to play OL for the NFL you know?

[aaron22]

Getting emotionally invested in your pc is a balancing act. For me, I draw the line at permanent death. I try to feel the same as my character does but in a 3rd person sense. Similar to reading a book or watching a movie. I want to drive my character to succeed. My pc would feel that way and I would be doing her a disservice and anyone I RP with one as well if I did not play it out that way. I, the player, do not get upset when I fail. But I might play that out in my RP. I NEVER let my IC failures create an ooc emotional response. I am thankful for the lows as well as the highs. It's a game but it's also role play. So getting into your character is nessasary but it's also a video game so don't get that confused with rl.

[chad878262]

Or do what I do... When I fail, I blame Calodan both IC'ly and OOC'ly, when I succeed it is due solely to my own awesomeness and in no way related to the dozens of much better players and their advice given over the past couple years.

Just kidding of course... I find it helpful to use any failure as an opportunity to learn more about the engine, the AI tactics and my own short comings as a player (either RP wise or mechanically). Review the string of events, be they RP events or just getting fugued and determine what it was that I could have done better. I generally think my characters would do this as well (if they lived through said failure) so there is an IC aspect to the OOC look-back.

[WhatsInTheBox]

I am not speaking from a point of view where I am constantly dieing or losing. I've PvPed on this server twice since I've been here 1 win 1 loss , the loss was against a favored soul with epic divine might and me only being level 18.

On Dalelands Beyond (where I played before here) my character had 20 different wands picturing what he must have looked like to store all those wands on his person is kind of amusing. I know how to win with a non-caster but it'd be nice to have the power balance brought together so you don't have to be a cheese lord to have a good shot at winning in a confrontation. Yes I am saying "win" alot, there is nothing wrong with wanting to have a fair shot at winning I think, yes?

[chad878262]

I know how to win with a non-caster but it'd be nice to have the power balance brought together so you don't have to be a cheese lord to have a good shot at winning in a confrontation.

The issue, as I see it is if you don't balance against the highest common denominator you run in to an issue where the game gets boring for veterans. This game only survives because of people that have been around a long time (in some cases since the beginning). If every boss is easy to beat without using any tactics above auto-attack then (IMO) that'd be pretty lame. To beat a boss you should either have to build around using the tactics required to do so on a solo character or you should have to put together a fairly standard D&D party. For the most part that is how the end game bosses are currently. With the appropriate builds and tactics you can defeat almost any boss solo, but if you don't want to powerbuild you can still take on that content by simply getting a buddy or two together.

Yes I am saying "win" alot, there is nothing wrong with wanting to have a fair shot at winning I think, yes?

A fair shot, yes if you understand the enemy you are facing and prepare accordingly. This already exists. In PvP it's always fair unless someone is using an exploit (which of course happens from time to time, unfortunately). The only thing that is really at issue is the skill level of the player. A skilled melee player has a fairly even chance to take out a caster in all honesty. Clever use of things like IKD and Shield slam will help. I was discussing this in PM's recently with a buddy and he explained when we had stock bigby it could be an "I win" button, but only against a player that didn't know how to prepare and counter it. However, without Bigby a well built Fighter can make himself immune to anything a Caster can do with wands like Deathward, least mantle, etc. Yes, the caster can dispel those wands, but while they cast that the warrior can knock them down or possibly even one-hit them. It is simply a matter of the players willingness to learn how and when to use various consumables.

[aaron22]

I support Chad's observation. My fb can kill easy a mage build even above level if the player is inexperienced. In turn I am nothing but a bug against an experienced mage that has a somewhat prepared spellbook.