thought of the day on tanks

[ARHicks00]

The issue, as I see it is if you don't balance against the highest common denominator you run in to an issue where the game gets boring for veterans. This game only survives because of people that have been around a long time (in some cases since the beginning). If every boss is easy to beat without using any tactics above auto-attack then (IMO) that'd be pretty lame. To beat a boss you should either have to build around using the tactics required to do so on a solo character or you should have to put together a fairly standard D&D party. For the most part that is how the end game bosses are currently. With the appropriate builds and tactics you can defeat almost any boss solo, but if you don't want to powerbuild you can still take on that content by simply getting a buddy or two together

1. As i said, DnD/NWN was never meant to balanced so some classes will have an easier time than others getting through the game.

2. You don't have to make the areas challenging to keep bored veterans here. It is either you want to stay or you do not.

3. So you saying if a level 30 mage took on the boss minus the minions in the upper level content, the mage would still lose? The only way that happens is if Mage cannot strip any of the protections off said epic boss or if said boss has lots of immunities to spells.

My point is that DnD/NwN quests should be fun not hard work. Don't upgrade said quest because your build blew through said dungeon in under a minute. That is not what DnD/NwN is about. It is about coming together to roleplay our character and enjoying each others company, not bragging how your level 30 paladin of the Unicorn with 60 AC and 80 AB was able to get through the pits of hell and Jade Emperors palace. I am more interested how you roleplayed it then conquered it.

So these quests should be building social relationship as characters not providing a challenge.

A fair shot, yes if you understand the enemy you are facing and prepare accordingly. This already exists. In PvP it's always fair unless someone is using an exploit (which of course happens from time to time, unfortunately). The only thing that is really at issue is the skill level of the player.

There is no skill in a point and click game. It is either your build can tackle a lot of problems or it cannot. Where is the skill need to play a pure level fighter or a weapon master? Heck, anyone can abuse a HIPS assassin death attack. Most melee types rely on passives (barbarian rage, ki critical) to win with a few active feats. (Knockdown, smite, ki attack, quivering palm, or disarm) A mage just needs a spell that can bypass protections and a hard defense.

A skilled melee player has a fairly even chance to take out a caster in all honesty.

Unless that melee character has UMD, a hasted mage with grease, and in open field can ruin that melee character's day. However, if you use UMD to win the fight then it is not player skill that won the battle, but exploiting unlimited resource and having access to certain spells that won the fight. That does level the playing field, but just force the play to exploit another venue to get the advantage.

Clever use of things like IKD and Shield slam will help. I was discussing this in PM's recently with a buddy and he explained when we had stock bigby it could be an "I win" button, but only against a player that didn't know how to prepare and counter it. However, without Bigby a well built Fighter can make himself immune to anything a Caster can do with wands like Deathward, least mantle, etc. Yes, the caster can dispel those wands, but while they cast that the warrior can knock them down or possibly even one-hit them. It is simply a matter of the players willingness to learn how and when to use various consumables.

See above. Also a pure fighter can get up to 16 to 18 will saves with feats, not counting gear. A mage can get a spell DC of 40 to 44 with buffs and no gear. Unless you power game (or heavily abuse UMD) most pure class melee builds have little to no defense against a mage. Again this aligns with what i said about DnD not being balanced.

[chad878262]

I am afraid I have to disagree with you ARHicks, several of your points are your OPINION of what a game of D&D should be and are presented as facts.

1. As i said, DnD/NWN was never meant to balanced so some classes will have an easier time than others getting through the game.

Ok, so why is it an issue that a Fighter with no UMD "has no chance against a mage"?

2. You don't have to make the areas challenging to keep bored veterans here. It is either you want to stay or you do not.

Well, if we have people not staying the server will simply die away. Considering right now we have the most active player base since I joined (Sept, 2014) I have to say that I think something is going very RIGHT with the server currently.

3. So you saying if a level 30 mage took on the boss minus the minions in the upper level content, the mage would still lose? The only way that happens is if Mage cannot strip any of the protections off said epic boss or if said boss has lots of immunities to spells.

Eh? No idea where I said that. However, if a Mage takes on a boss for the first time solo and didn't memorize the right spells the BEST they can probably hope for is they were smart enough to have at least one 'get me outta here now' spell. This is a perfectly sound tactic, figure out your enemies strengths and weaknesses, then go hang out until you can memorize the appropriate spells and return to lay waste to your enemies. It's the primary reason a wizard is better than a sorcerer without considering meta knowledge of the server, you are able to adjust your spellbook as needed for a given situation. It's also why generalist mage is a viable option, especially for players who have little experience playing one.

My point is that DnD/NwN quests should be fun not hard work. Don't upgrade said quest because your build blew through said dungeon in under a minute. That is not what DnD/NwN is about. It is about coming together to roleplay our character and enjoying each others company, not bragging how your level 30 paladin of the Unicorn with 60 AC and 80 AB was able to get through the pits of hell and Jade Emperors palace. I am more interested how you roleplayed it then conquered it.

So these quests should be building social relationship as characters not providing a challenge.

Even in PnP if my adventures didn't provide SOME level of challenge to the players I am fairly certain the group would disband or they would elect a new DM. The corner stone of a good campaign (IMO) is providing challenges for the players to overcome. We haven't upgraded the content and in fact it was toned down after the dispel fix went in. I see no evidence in your post that would indicate there is a reason to tone it down further. As I said, any well rounded party should be more than capable of taking on any of the content so if you want to roleplay, enjoy the experience with your buds and take on the Frost Giant King or the Balor, you should be more than capable of doing so with a group.

There is no skill in a point and click game. It is either your build can tackle a lot of problems or it cannot. Where is the skill need to play a pure level fighter or a weapon master? Heck, anyone can abuse a HIPS assassin death attack. Most melee types rely on passives (barbarian rage, ki critical) to win with a few active feats. (Knockdown, smite, ki attack, quivering palm, or disarm) A mage just needs a spell that can bypass protections and a hard defense.

Um, well if there is no skill to it you should be able to solo any boss with any class so problem solved, right? There is skill to building characters, for instance you can build a melee fighter type with a Will save of 27 base, if you forego the 'standard' F/WM/FB/R and instead take a couple of high BAB classes that also improve saving throws. you will still approach 50 damage per hit (more on a crit) and will still have AB of 45+, but you get improved defenses. There is also skill in playing, such as utilizing spellcraft to know what is being cast, using HiPS defensively sometimes instead of just offensively or knowing what you can do to defend yourself without UMD as a non-caster. All of these are possible, but they take knowledge (one might even say some of them take skill).

Unless that melee character has UMD, a hasted mage with grease, and in open field can ruin that melee character's day. However, if you use UMD to win the fight then it is not player skill that won the battle, but exploiting unlimited resource and having access to certain spells that won the fight. That does level the playing field, but just force the play to exploit another venue to get the advantage.

Well, if the mage casts grease while the fighter is running at him he will be a lot closer to the mage, mage has maybe one spell before fighter reaches him. Fighter built properly has saves over 30 for Fortitude and ~27 for Will (and +6 saves vs. Spells for AK/WoD or some other PRCs). So, a DC caster has a DC of ~41, if they use a will save spell the fighter still has a better than 50% chance of saving (if they don't use a mantle wand)... If the fighter saves they get to the mage before the next round, so yeah, I'd say that could ruin the wizards day since they didn't spend any time warding and instead cast grease and save or X...

See above. Also a pure fighter can get up to 16 to 18 will saves with feats, not counting gear. A mage can get a spell DC of 40 to 44 with buffs and no gear. Unless you power game (or heavily abuse UMD) most pure class melee builds have little to no defense against a mage. Again this aligns with what i said about DnD not being balanced.

This is just poor building. Fighter can add classes like AK or WoD to improve will saves and open spellcraft as a class skill. Blackguard and Divine Champion can also increase saves, as well as Thayan Knight if that fits your RP. The issue is the thought that to build a Fighter it must include Frenzied Berserker and Weapon Master, which is simply not true and, without really REALLY good gear I would say is not a great way to go if you will mostly solo UNLESS you are willing to use UMD.

[ARHicks00]

I am afraid I have to disagree with you ARHicks, several of your points are your OPINION of what a game of D&D should be and are presented as facts.

You misunderstand that DnD was not about balance. If this where the case, every spell would have a save range/melee touch, and magic would influence a small part of the DnD world. In fact, magic would more likely to backfire or go out of control even when less powerful spells were being used. The fact that mages can bend light, time, and space says a lot. In fact, the classes with the best longevity without items are spellcasters.

Melee characters require enchanted equipment to perform better at higher levels do they not? Do they not require adds from spellcaster classes to take on certain problem? The fact spellcasters play a large role in how far you get in the game says a lot about balance.

1. I never said UMD was an issue. I just said NwN/DnD was never made to be balanced.

2. Not everybody here is playing for just the challenge because i am pretty sure a lot epic veterans have beaten the content and updated content many times. There is no challenge if you conquered it once already. I am not saying people are not playong for the challenge, but every person is playing in this server for different reasons. I am playing to enjoy the company of others.

3. With a mage being the swiss army knife of damage, they should be able to take the boss down by themselves since they have access to several different damage types. Unless the boss is given a huge HP pool, immunities to certain spells, and damage. At that point it is no longer a challenge but a job. At which FOR SOME people, it less fin and boring. NPCs and dungeons weren't meant to scale with us. This is not that type of MMORPG.

4. No insult, but if you did not enjoy the time spent with your fellow DnD and you more concern with the challenge than the problem was not that quest was challenging enough, you might be antisocial player. Again, the content can't scale with you so you should enjoy it for what it is. Unless the DMs go out of their way to counter every damage or spell, you will always prevail.

With that being said, I am not saying these quests should not be challenging. Rather I am say it is about the trip, not the destination you should be content with. While we enjoyed the climax of LOTR, we enjoyed what happened in between even more. That right there is the true spirit of DnD. And these quests are to be challenging, should the rewards not be bigger. I remember doing some of the upper level content and got the same gear i find in the lower dungeons. Without a high risk, big rewards factor in these quests then there is no reason to up the stakes.

Again, i am not interested in what you conquer or how good your build is, but story behind your adventure.

5. You can kill most of the content by preplannong or introducing a damage type that is rarely negated. Building not take skill, but experience as you have to be familiar with the content and classes. Most of these classes have a small learning curve. It comes down to how you build your character and for what purpose.

6. I wasn't theoryfighting as that comes down to variables. My point is that a mage uses magic to give themselves advantages such as reducing damage, reduce chances of being hit, increasing combat reaction, and burning his opponent. And what can a melee class do to counter magic? High saves? Evasion? Gear? All that is as situational as encountering a non-prebuffed mage.

To put it simple, without UMD and the right scrolls/wands a melee class chances of winning are slim.

7. I said pure fighter. Also see #6.

[chad878262]

You continue to make inaccurate assumptions, continuing with your misunderstanding of what this or any server is and now including assumptions about me, though we've never met. Suffice to say that you can play the server right now just as you indicated you wish to and it should not be a challenge. Do enjoy your journey with your mates, I'm not going to continue the discussion further as you fail to see the reasoning which makes your statements inaccurate. Learn the server with your buddies as you tell your story instead of requesting changes based on misinformation.

[Vogar Eol]

...Well, if we have people not staying the server will simply die away. Considering right now we have the most active player base since I joined (Sept, 2014) I have to say that I think something is going very RIGHT with the server currently....

Can't simply assume a causation from a correlation. Any of a number of external unknown factors can be (and are) at play.

Here is one, for sake of example. This last winter GOG (good old games) had a sale where NWN1 and NWN2 were either free, or extremely cheap. Steam currently offers neither for sale, so that was a big deal. This has lead to a bit of a breath of life into these games in general, both of new players and old players from before. I have so far met five new players have literally only started NWN2 this year.

In short, success only shows success is happening. It doesn't prove why success is happening, and doesn't prove a change would be bad either.

[chad878262]

But when you consider the number of players logging in to other servers in comparison to bg?

[ARHicks00]

But when you consider the number of players logging in to other servers in comparison to bg?

New players go to dalelands too, but the DM and old members are not always active.

[aaron22]

The misconception is thinking that magic on the realms is handed to the world by mages. It is not. The gods provide the world and everyone in it access. mages learn to bend it to thier will and focus there time and energy on that gift and skill. Magic is not a sole possession of mages. It belongs to anyone that can use it.

DnD was not really designed to be played by hundreds of players at level 30. A half dozen level 10 is dnd and there is balance there. This us obviously not pnp dnd. It's a massive multi-player video game simulating dnd rule set. Balance can be desired and achieved if desired. Drop level cap to 15 and we solve the xp issue preached about on another thread. Gear issues and the ew bug. As well as solve the balance issue.

[chad878262]

But when you consider the number of players logging in to other servers in comparison to bg?

New players go to dalelands too, but the DM and old members are not always active.

Nwn scry tells a different story. Haven (which casters to a different type of rp) has more people on than bg right now, trinity has about half if bg population, others are lower and dalelands has 1.

All I'm saying is after the big update on March of last year there were a lot of bugs. Most of those have been sorted and, while there will always be more bugs the server is getting constant updates and is fairly well balanced for both rp and challenging, but survivable content.

Agree with Aaron that a big issue is the further you get beyond level 10 the worse balance gets in d&d. However, with the established content of the server moving to a lower level cap is unlikely.

[Vogar Eol]

But when you consider the number of players logging in to other servers in comparison to bg?

New players go to dalelands too, but the DM and old members are not always active.

It could also be pointed out the most active servers have well thought-out names. Those names, and the number online are the two biggest features that draw new players. Once they log in, the other stuff starts to become a factor. In essence, its marketing. Starting a new server would be hard, regardless of quality. Who logs in to a 0/75 when they want a multiplayer experience?

[ARHicks00]

The misconception is thinking that magic on the realms is handed to the world by mages. It is not. The gods provide the world and everyone in it access. mages learn to bend it to thier will and focus there time and energy on that gift and skill. Magic is not a sole possession of mages. It belongs to anyone that can use it.

DnD was not really designed to be played by hundreds of players at level 30. A half dozen level 10 is dnd and there is balance there. This us obviously not pnp dnd. It's a massive multi-player video game simulating dnd rule set. Balance can be desired and achieved if desired. Drop level cap to 15 and we solve the xp issue preached about on another thread. Gear issues and the ew bug. As well as solve the balance issue.

Yes, I'm aware of the time of troubles had on divine magic and to a certain extend arcane magic. PnP is not balanced either as I discussion (and a funny one at that) many years ago with fellow pnpers about who was the strong class was. Mages are by far the strongest class due to their swiss army knife damage and versatile magic set. Gear is suppose to be set to +1 per 4 levels meaning if you are level 16, you should a +4 gear set. Epic levels is anything over +5.

Balanced can't be achieved. As I explaining, things like UMD, certain PrCs, and powergaming throw balance in the game off wack. (Unless you nerf them into the ground) It's not just levels that contributed to this, but gear, spells, and feats as well. Blocking a cleric from 7th to 9th level spells doesn't make them less dangerous since it's their ability to survive for long period that makes them so.