Classes that still need some love

[Rask]

I would love to see one or more of the high BAB classes/prestige classes that really push you hard into a dex-based character get uncanny dodge fairly early in their progression. Classes like:
Swashbuckler, Invisible Blade, Tempest, and/or Dervish. I don't believe these classes are particularly weak, but making a non-stealthing dex based melee build that doesn't have Uncanny Dodge seems like a really bad idea. Might open up a few new avenues for people to take.

tempest is a great candidate for uncanny dodge. Swash and dervish likely as well. Great suggestion

[dzidek1983]

List of Classes that need more love immediately:

Black Flame Zealot - is complete shit, nobody with some common sense would ever use it, if you want a divine rogue you take the Divine Seeker
Order of the Bow Initiate - currently a broken class, that had a lot of potential for being used a lot by people that wanted "normal" archers not those HIPS'ing rogues
Battlerager - change the prerequisites so it opens with FB Frenzy, now it forces you to become a barbarian
Bear Warrior - as people stated above, you get gimped the Dragon Druid way, but dont have such bonuses and cool spellbook...
Dragon Warrior - altough i know not every PRC has to be a powerhouse like AK, he could receive at least more draconic perks to emanate his heritage a bit more
Ghost Faced Killer - change the DC on his abilities do 1d20+character level/2+CHA mod
Men At Arms - so this is a base class that is best pure, need high CHA and in the same time doesnt have feats like a fighter to help with his lower STR, idk what to propose here, this fighter just needs more AB, do demoralize opponent and daunting challenge work correctly?
should give a -2 penalty to AB, skills and saves each and should stack for -4...
Techsmith - the Gondsman is to weak for epic level gameplay, even fully buffed he cant match the high tier summons...

[chad878262]

Black Flame Zealot - is complete (#2), nobody with some common sense would ever use it, if you want a divine rogue you take the Divine Seeker

Improvements to BFZ have been approved by QC, just haven't had a dev volunteer to do the work.

Order of the Bow Initiate - currently a broken class, that had a lot of potential for being used a lot by people that wanted "normal" archers not those HIPS'ing rogues

Recently a dev took up the cause for OOBI and has posted some questions to QC, so this is being worked on.

Battlerager - change the prerequisites so it opens with FB Frenzy, now it forces you to become a barbarian
Bear Warrior - as people stated above, you get gimped the Dragon Druid way, but dont have such bonuses and cool spellbook...

I think changes were already implemented to improve Battlerager, I'll check just to be sure, but it's unlikely any further improvements will be made.

Dragon Warrior - altough i know not every PRC has to be a powerhouse like AK, he could receive at least more draconic perks to emanate his heritage a bit more

This PRC needs no help. For a CON based warrior this is a fantastic PRC since the DC for Dragonbreath is CON based. B20/DW10 is perfectly viable as is F12/DW10/DC8, for example. It's a rare combination of granting some decent free defenses while still giving an offensive option with dragon breath and applying elemental damage to a weapon.

Ghost Faced Killer - change the DC on his abilities do 1d20+character level/2+CHA mod

Ghost Faced Killer already received a bump by moving Cleave earlier in levels and giving it True Sight. The DC's have never been a real issue. DC is never calculated with a d20 roll, it is static. Without the d20 roll the DC would be 15+CHA mod, vs the current of 10+GFK level+ CHA mod, so for a character with 10 GFK levels you would be reducing the DC by 5 (or nerfing it).

Men At Arms - so this is a base class that is best pure, need high CHA and in the same time doesnt have feats like a fighter to help with his lower STR, idk what to propose here, this fighter just needs more AB, do demoralize opponent and daunting challenge work correctly?
should give a -2 penalty to AB, skills and saves each and should stack for -4...

Pure M@A is an option, if you want to focus on Demoralize opponent and the challenges. However, consider this.

Four levels gives you +1 AC from shield and free Heavy Armor Optimization, a fifth level gives you a bonus feat...That's 3 feats in 5 levels, which is what a Fighter would get (1, 2, 4), but the M@A also gets 2 more HP / level. Going to level 11 gets you another +1 Shield AC, Greater Heavy Armor Optimization and another bonus feat, so 6 feats in 11 levels, vs. Fighter who also gets 6. Going to 15 gets you Rescue and a bonus feat, so 8 feats total vs. F15 which would also have 8. At 20 you have Indomitable Soul and another Bonus Feat (10 vs. a F20 which would have 11). Going to 30 you gain 2 more Shield AC, 4 more Epic Feats so the M@A has a total of 16 Feats vs. a Fighter 30 which also has 16 bonus feats. However, you also have more HP and your challenges as well as high Will Saves. Point being a M@A is, perhaps shoe-horned in to a more defensive build, since it gains 4 non-epic and 4 epic bonus feats that they get to pick, while the other 8 feats grant them +4 Shield AC, +2 Dodge AC (via Gr. Heavy Armor Optimization) and two feats that may not be picked, but are great picks in any case (Rescue and Indomitable Soul). If you eschew (or at least don't focus on CHA) and just say go with 13 or 15, you can still get solid STR and CON. You can dump DEX at 9 and use a +3 item since you are build to wear non-mithral Full Plate, you can also leave WIS at 8 comfortably thanks to high Will Saves and Indomitable Soul. INT is your choice, but should probably be 12 or 14 to allow for max Tumble and Taunt, as well as 15 Spellcraft plus some RP skills. However, you can leave it at 10 from a PB perspective and just go 30 Tumble, 15 Spellcraft. This leaves plenty of room for you to get MAX STR or ~ 21 STR and CON so that you will have a solid AB as well as be able to get Epic DR and/or Fast Healing. Why does this class need help again? seems to me to be more of an issue of being misunderstood, rather than under-powered.

Techsmith - the Gondsman is to weak for epic level gameplay, even fully buffed he cant match the high tier summons...

First I'm hearing of this one, can't find any discussions in QC... Why is it to weak for epic level gameplay? What is it's AC when it has been fully buffed by the PC? What's it's AB? What's it's Damage? How does it compare to a Thaumaturge Summon? I ask because the Gondsman is not supposed to be the equivalent of a PM undead or a Druid's animal companion. If it truly is a situation where fully buffed at epic levels the gondsman has 30 AC and 30 AB then sure, it needs a look, but as I said, this is the first I am hearing of an issue and in fact I recall the Gondsman being fairly powerful when I tested it (but that was over a year ago and I am not sure if things were tweaked afterwords).


This was not a post to dismiss your comments, more to provide my feedback on what is being done and what is likely to be done for the various classes. This is my opinion and should not be taken as an official statement since I don't make those decisions. I hope it's at least helpful in some way.

[izzul]

Black Flame Zealot - is complete (#2), nobody with some common sense would ever use it, if you want a divine rogue you take the Divine Seeker

Improvements to BFZ have been approved by QC, just haven't had a dev volunteer to do the work.

i wish someone could teach me how to do the work, or at least making BFZ a little weaker for balance and add caster level progression into into BFZ

[Theodore01]

Battlerager got this recently (cant say at what level ) Forum & wiki is missing that info.

[Valefort]

At level 2.

[Nachti]

Who made the techsmith btw?

[chad878262]

Who made the techsmith btw?

i think it was Rasael, but may have been someone else.

[Calodan]

Pure M@A is an option, if you want to focus on Demoralize opponent and the challenges. However, consider this.

Four levels gives you +1 AC from shield and free Heavy Armor Optimization, a fifth level gives you a bonus feat...That's 3 feats in 5 levels, which is what a Fighter would get (1, 2, 4), but the M@A also gets 2 more HP / level. Going to level 11 gets you another +1 Shield AC, Greater Heavy Armor Optimization and another bonus feat, so 6 feats in 11 levels, vs. Fighter who also gets 6. Going to 15 gets you Rescue and a bonus feat, so 8 feats total vs. F15 which would also have 8. At 20 you have Indomitable Soul and another Bonus Feat (10 vs. a F20 which would have 11). Going to 30 you gain 2 more Shield AC, 4 more Epic Feats so the M@A has a total of 16 Feats vs. a Fighter 30 which also has 16 bonus feats. However, you also have more HP and your challenges as well as high Will Saves. Point being a M@A is, perhaps shoe-horned in to a more defensive build, since it gains 4 non-epic and 4 epic bonus feats that they get to pick, while the other 8 feats grant them +4 Shield AC, +2 Dodge AC (via Gr. Heavy Armor Optimization) and two feats that may not be picked, but are great picks in any case (Rescue and Indomitable Soul). If you eschew (or at least don't focus on CHA) and just say go with 13 or 15, you can still get solid STR and CON. You can dump DEX at 9 and use a +3 item since you are build to wear non-mithral Full Plate, you can also leave WIS at 8 comfortably thanks to high Will Saves and Indomitable Soul. INT is your choice, but should probably be 12 or 14 to allow for max Tumble and Taunt, as well as 15 Spellcraft plus some RP skills. However, you can leave it at 10 from a PB perspective and just go 30 Tumble, 15 Spellcraft. This leaves plenty of room for you to get MAX STR or ~ 21 STR and CON so that you will have a solid AB as well as be able to get Epic DR and/or Fast Healing. Why does this class need help again? seems to me to be more of an issue of being misunderstood, rather than under-powered.

Quoted for truth on this awesome base class. I love love love this class. The challenge is spectacular giving +1 EB and +1 Will Saves when used. The taunt ability is great in a tandem group to pull agro from a non shield bearing unit to you. Just amazing class used as a 5 level start for a EVIL build with BG/TK/ and or WoD is great. One could go good side too taking instead DC and Annointed Knight. Though nothing compares to the WoD in power over a 10 level span PrC for melee. It is pretty powerful when combined with a base MaA build. Just wonderful class that focuses a bit more on the defensive things. Now if you know this server and understand that two things are really really important for a build AC and HP then you realize this build is absolutely spectacular. I have a level 8 PC 5 MaA/3 WoD currently that can go kill every monster up to Dire Bears in High Hedge. That means I can go do Gnolls, Orcs at level 8 and I was doing that at level 7 with this build because it has 44 AC at level 8. I am getting high 40s-50 XP per kill at the places I can currently go. This will only get worse as I level up because the monsters AB goes up and eventually there are monsters that can hit a 44 AC build and Critical that. However by then this build will reach it potential of 51 AC and thusly be mostly immune to getting hit very often and mostly on a crit hit that can not beat your AC anyway so you only take base damage.

[Laughingman]

Dragon Warrior - altough i know not every PRC has to be a powerhouse like AK, he could receive at least more draconic perks to emanate his heritage a bit more

There are a bunch of new spells that grow more powerful with draconic heritage from this class.

[V'rass]

Clerics could use a ton more spells... wizards have about twice the amount that clerics do and the cleric spell list could use some more to even out the difference.

[dzidek1983]

Dragon Warrior - altough i know not every PRC has to be a powerhouse like AK, he could receive at least more draconic perks to emanate his heritage a bit more

There are a bunch of new spells that grow more powerful with draconic heritage from this class.

When i asked the staff no one confirmed that this is working.

[dzidek1983]

Techsmith - the Gondsman is to weak for epic level gameplay, even fully buffed he cant match the high tier summons...

First I'm hearing of this one, can't find any discussions in QC... Why is it to weak for epic level gameplay? What is it's AC when it has been fully buffed by the PC? What's it's AB? What's it's Damage? How does it compare to a Thaumaturge Summon? I ask because the Gondsman is not supposed to be the equivalent of a PM undead or a Druid's animal companion. If it truly is a situation where fully buffed at epic levels the gondsman has 30 AC and 30 AB then sure, it needs a look, but as I said, this is the first I am hearing of an issue and in fact I recall the Gondsman being fairly powerful when I tested it (but that was over a year ago and I am not sure if things were tweaked afterwords).

Well when i tested this "on paper" with a wizard build you received a non buffed Gondsman with 18AB and 25AC i think he should at least be on par with the Gate summons. Angel has 23 AB and 30 AC. So he falls behind a summon with 5 points of AC and AB less. His dmg is also weaker as he does with a falchion 2d4+3 dmg while the Angel does 2d12+13+1d6