With Bladesinger...why not Spellsword?

[aaron22]

That's clearly an elf and singing

no thats He-Man. turning Cringer (giant) into battle cat(giant)

[Steve]

Lol. Are you trying to say that Elves also have cornered the market on any image in which a quiver of arrows appears?!?

Just cause Elves waste their time spending years learning how to bladesing, by no means cancels out Humans mastery of EVERYTHING and their Spellswordness.

[chad878262]

This is FR man, where humans are the cause of all things evil (unwittingly though they may be)... Elves are perfect in every way and just better at everything...Wait, that might be Tolkien...

[Steve]

Elves are perfect in every way ...

You mean, perfectly stuck up with a stick in the hole where the sun don't shine? I highly agree!

Look: Bladesinger got "in" for OOC reasons. Simple as that. Show me different and I'll shut up. Why not also have Spellsword? What is the difference in making special magic based existence for Elves? Sure, Elves are magic—in a way...—but is this an IC argument, or an OOC one?

I am fully prepared to develop a long term RP reason to make Spellsword exist on BGTSCC, if that is necessary. But is it? You need me to jump through hoops? It wouldn't be the first time I perform in order to square out the need by Staff.

Essentially, outline the requirements and someone—if it isn't me—will fulfill them. Don't be coy.

[chad878262]

Uh, you know I was joking, right?

[Steve]

Of course I know you were joking.

But I'm not joking when it comes to reasons things are justified, or not.

[chad878262]

Well, from your poll it doesn't appear that this prc has a whole lot of support.

[Sun Wukong]

Look: Bladesinger got "in" for OOC reasons. Simple as that. Show me different and I'll shut up.

Bladesinger is a pretty old special snowflake thing in D&D and people have always liked playing elves on top of being a warrior/mage of some sort. So Bladesinger is where those three lines converge. Special snowflake, elf, and warrior/mage. It is everything that some are interested in, not to mention that over the years there have been countless builds for a 'bladesinger' used by different players. Not to mention that people have been suggesting a Bladesinger PRC for years.

Now, as for why it got in... Well, you are correct to suggest that there were some OOC reasons behind it. First and foremost, many-many, PRCs have been added over the years. Some are very good like Hierophant and some are very terrible like Blackflame Zealot, and then we have that Dragonslayer PRC to put against this Bladesinger PRC and see how the two compare. The current iteration of Bladesinger is mechanically slightly inferior when compared to a Dragonslayer - although the two can be used to make some distinct builds with benchmarks of power that the other would struggle to meet. But over all, Dragonslayer is the better PRC of the two.

The biggest problem with Dragonslayer is how not everyone wants to be a 'dragon slayer...' as it is hard work and all that.

Why not also have Spellsword? What is the difference in making special magic based existence for Elves? Sure, Elves are magic—in a way...—but is this an IC argument, or an OOC one?

There are likely some OOC reasons derived from the past PRC additions. Namely how easy it would be to call out the gish favoritism - how arcanist and/or gishes eat all the developer time and effort and none remains for other things. How some players seem to get perks for themselves... etc. The other is addition of multitude of very similar PRCs... Is there a point to have a ton of carbon copy PRCs?

And then there are some balance issues to consider, for example a Wizard with three full BAB PRCs that offer arcane spellcasting progression. It is an issue if the requirements overlap.

Thus... How about something different? We have Daggerspell Mage, Bladesinger, so why not an Axe Mage, or a Spellhammer Slinger? Those are just made up things, but would offer something distinct and new.

[Steve]

Elf lover conspiracy!!

But what does it matter, from my poll? I made it sarcastically, just to rub Valefort. Did that slip by you?

I admire Valefort immensely, but that changes nothing related to the fact that Bladesinger was also not needed on BGTSCC, but was added because Valefort choose to do it. Simple as that.

So why not Spellsword? Is there some actually valid reason that should prevent it on a medium RP server—I'm still not convinced there is, besides subjective anecdotal this and that.

Is the PrC as defined by 3.5e on D&D Tools or Tome & Blood just simply too mechanically skewed for OP-ness, that it shouldn't be on BGTSCC? Then, define that...and please define that against the Favored Soul class, because I can surely build a better FvS than any Arcane + Spellsword you can come up with.

Nonetheless, if you can say with certainty that the Spellsword "as is" is simply too OP to add, then simply QC-the-heck out of it, and tone it down to whatever Standard that defines the current paradigm.

[Steve]

Thus... How about something different? ....
an Axe Mage, or a Spellhammer Slinger? Those are just made up things, but would offer something distinct and new.

[Sun Wukong]

Elf lover conspiracy!!

Nah, just call it the elven supremacy club!

So why not Spellsword? Is there some actually valid reason that should prevent it on a medium RP server—I'm still not convinced there is, besides subjective anecdotal this and that.

Is the PrC as defined by 3.5e on D&D Tools or Tome & Blood just simply too mechanically skewed for OP-ness, that it shouldn't be on BGTSCC? Then, define that...and please define that against the Favored Soul class, because I can surely build a better FvS than any Arcane + Spellsword you can come up with.

Nonetheless, if you can say with certainty that the Spellsword "as is" is simply too OP to add, then simply QC-the-heck out of it, and tone it down to whatever Standard that defines the current paradigm.

Alright, I dug up the official PRC description and compared it your suggestion:

For example the 'PnP PRC' actually allows you to progress with a divine spell casting class and just requires 6 ranks in any 'lore skill.' But let us presume that the implementation is limited to just arcane spellcaster for convenience's sake.

The class skills would include: Climb, Concentration, Lore: "All of Them", Jump, Listen, Profession, Scry, Spellcraft, and Spot.

Also, this PRC is not a full BAB progression one, it is medium. Thus 10 levels of the PRC gives 7 point of BAB.

Channel Spell I, II, and III, allow you to apply a level 1, 2, and 3 spell respectively on your sword, and have it cast with a swing. With Channel Spell III unlocked, it would work kind of like a once a day Hideous Blow, or twice per day with a level 2 spell, or thrice per day with a level 3 spell. Now, your suggestion allows you to cast any spell, and two spells at level 10. Can you imagine what a 50d6 damage from double Polar Ray (caster level 25) could do to a single target? (It is 175~ damage on average, without including your weapon damage dice.) Or what about double Avasculate? Your opponent now has only 25% of its hitpoints left. Even if you do not allow the same spell to be used twice, why not combine that Avasculate with a Polar Ray. First the HP is reduced by 50% and then you deal 87~ points of damage on average, and whatever else you can throw out.

• I for one would build a Cleric 3/Sorcerer 7/Eldritch Knight 10/Spellsword 10 with both Northlander Hewing and Epic Divine might.
• So, 22 base strength and charisma. 8 (Longsword) + 12 (Strength*1.5) + 5 (GMW) + 13 (NH) + 16 (EDM) = 54 damage per hit.
• BAB of 22, so we get 3 attacks with NH turned on, and one extra from Haste spell. We could assume for argument's sake that two hits are very likely to hit. (I assume Spellsword gives medium BAB progression.)
• Thus, 108 + 87 = 195, 192*2 = 390, which means that there is a very high chance that anything with less than 391 hitpoints can die in a single round. Some might consider it a PvP issue.
• Oh yeah, caster level is that 25.

We could now have a look at that arcane spell failure reduction, and what arcane spell failure chance Mithral Armor provides. A mithral Fullplate or Banded Mail only comes with 25% ASF, and a light shield comes with a 5% ASF, so you could combine the two and suffer no ASF when casting your arcane spells. Additionally the base armor stats have been improved on this server, which means that you could also make use of a Mithral Scale mail and regular Heavy Shield and suffer no ASF. Because arcanists have access to the shield spell, they do not need armor enchantment on the shield - thus it is an item slot that could offer pretty much anything. Morever, the ASF reduction progresses from 10% to 30% in increments of 5% - which means that with the right mithral armor you do not need to get full 30% to negate your equipment's arcane spell failure.

Finally, your suggestion does not have Spellsword's 'Brew Potion feat' to bind spells into their swords. (Kind of like Bloodmagus runes etc, although limited to what you can do with Brew Potion feat.) Bit of a shame as it could provide some additional flair, but kind of useless with the dispel fix... But it could be used to have some backup spells in case you ever get dispelled.

Now, some could argue that it would be very easy to meet the feat requirements. All you need is one level of Fighter, Paladin, or Cleric with the right domain - but the 3 by level 20 rule means that you need to get at least three levels of any of the previously mentioned classes - and that comes with a price when you consider caster levels. But as you can see from the above example, caster level of 25 is a possibility. It may suck to be dispelled, but you do get that PvP chance to one round kill anything that has less than 391 hitpoints...

Not to mention how anyone who went for Bladesinger would probably understand that Spellsword is kind of the better PRC of the two, or three if you count the Drow Bladesinger, "Deathsinger" or whatever it is called.

Now, were someone to make this PRC as it is suggested, I would oppose it on that nebulous principle of server balance. I may not be part of the staff or carry much favours anymore - but what I am is incredibly insufferable - and I have that unfortunate tendency to not mind getting banned upon some mole hill...

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Oh dear... Anyhow, I actually voted for "Yes, this PrC is a Low As Dirt priority" because I do understand that not everyone wants to play an Elf or a Half-elf for Bladesinger - or - take up the role-playing burden of being a Dragonslayer. Thus, there is some demand for another arcane gish PRC that is little bit more generic, which something like a Spellsword could offer - but sadly the currently suggested PRC is not quite there balance wise.

Hence, it might be much easier to steal the Bladesinger secrets from the Elves, get protection from the Dukes and start "Baldur's Gate Gish School for Proving Why Elves Drool."

But if you want this PRC on the server, perhaps it would be better to replace the Channel spell ability with Spellsword Cache, the kind of like Brew Potion feat with your weapon. (And allow you to determine your caster level.)

[Steve]

I also agree that Spellsword should have higher requirements than the OP that is copy/pasted from D&D Tools/Complete Warrior. I even made some suggestions in a later post.

But the Brew Potion ability thing sounds much like an Arcane version of Anointed Knight, that in itself sounds rather cool!

Being "possibly" able to make shy of 400 dmg in a one-time round isn't much at all—the NWN2 engine is going to make your toon miss A LOT!

[Sun Wukong]

Being "possibly" able to make shy of 400 dmg in a one-time round isn't much at all—the NWN2 engine is going to make your toon miss A LOT!

We are not looking at some critical hit based engine of relative destruction, we are looking at something that only needs to score a single hit.

And yes, he who is willing to acquire and spam wands will win at PvP, but just take a moment to consider how many popular builds actually fall beneath that shy of 400 points of damage.

If I recall correctly, Randal's 'Fighter 14/Rogue 4/Weapon Master 7/Frenzied Berserker 5' min-maxed human would have fallen under without some constitution increasing item. Then, how many EDM Favored Soul builds actually acquire more than 330~ hit points? What of your typical sneak attack builds, ones that have focused solely on sneak equipment, dexterity, and a little bit of intelligence? Do you think their 180~ hitpoints will sponge up that just shy of 400 damage?

Not to mention how this 'Channel Spell' ability does not really have a purpose in PvE, very little use against bosses, so in essence its use is focused towards PvP. Bladesinger's 'Channel Spell' has the potential to fry most sneaks on a single hit - and Spellsword would be able to do the same on an expanded list.

[Steve]

... has the potential to fry most sneaks on a single hit - and Spellsword would be able to do the same on an expanded list.

You have heard of Epic Dodgebefore, yes?

Even if a Spellsword would have her sword all magicked up and ready to swing...you'd have 1 chance. After that, nothing.

That F/WM/FB/R has the capacity to do 300 dmg per round x infinity. And EDM FvS has about 5 minutes to obliderate a foe.

And actually, a Spellsword—or Bladesinger—with a loaded sword is best applied TOWARD a Boss Fight: if gives you a chance, really, just a chance, to be able to strike with all of the Power of the Art you can muster, and be victorious. But if you gamble and lose—as in, the engine rolls a bad dice—you're still a moderately damaging Gish, and you had better hoped your CL is 29–30, else your Toon is gonna get fried itself!

[Sun Wukong]

You have heard of Epic Dodgebefore, yes?

This is how the ability is worded for Bladesigner:

- Song of Celerity (Ex): A bladesinger can imbue his sword with any hostile spell he memorized, only one spell at a time can be imbued within the weapon. It is cast at the target on a successful melee attack.

The ability description makes it sound like that Song of Celerity would not burn the spell on the hit absorbed by Epic Dodge (a miss by all intents and purposes) - but actually trigger on the second attack to land. I have not tested it myself, but if it works exactly as it is described, I do not think that Epic Dodge would act as a counter to Spellsword's Channel Spell or Multiple Channel Spell ability. I am saying that because the easiest way to code something is to copy and paste previously written code...




Now, were I to suggest implementation of Spellsword... I would try to keep the PRC bit closer to source material while taking under consideration how NWN2, and BGTSCC, is a bit more grindy than any PnP campaign.

Thus, how about following for a possible implementation of Channel Spell:

Channel Spell I: At level three the spellsword is allowed to choose one energy type out of Fire, Cold, Electric, Acid, and Sonic and level one spells of the chosen damage can be cast once per round through her weapon as a free action. The total damage dice and saves remain the same, but the area of the spell is limited to your current target.

Channel Spell II: At level six the spellsword is allowed to choose one energy type out of Fire, Cold, Electric, Acid, and Sonic and level two spells of the chosen damage can be cast once per round through her weapon as a free action. The total damage dice and saves remain the same, but the area of the spell is limited to your current target.

Channel Spell III: At level nine the spellsword is allowed to choose one energy type out of Fire, Cold, Electric, Acid, and Sonic and level three spells of the chosen damage can be cast once per round through her weapon as a free action. The total damage dice and saves remain the same, but the area of the spell is limited to your current target.

It would be kind of like 'Hideous Blow' for arcanists - one that burns through your memorized spells of a specific damage type and spell level.

Thus, a Spellsword that took Channel Spell I (Fire) - could toggle the feat active and burn through those memorized spells in melee or even ranged combat. Then facing other foes, he could use Channel Spell II (Cold) to make use of level two spells in similar fashion. Finally against third group of enemies maybe Channel Spell III (Electric) gives him the advantage.

It could be something that allows Spellsword to look like a PRC of its own... Although someone would have to make it. Well, since I suggested it, I suppose I could offer to produce some pretty icons or something...

And as for damage per hit you could do, you can check the spells from here: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=16494