Suggestions to Improve Thaumaturge

[Hawke]

Before everyone goes after me with pitchforks, just hear me out.

Thaumaturge is a decent PrC with a 2 feat requirement. In return, you get two feats back. Augment Summoning and Extended Summon ( which cannot be acquired any other way). Yes you get Contingent Summon, which really is an extra spellslot and Planar Cohort which is an extension of Extended Summon.

But how does the Thaumaturge really shine into its own light? Anyone can do this without taking the PrC. Extended summons? Meh, at level 30 everything is up for 30 minutes anyways, right?

So what makes the Thaumaturge really a worthwhile class to take without being too crazy in the power department?

Let's get Gate to operate for 10 minutes. If the extended duration worked correctly, gate would be up for about 3.6 minutes. That is ok... but the duration is a little rough. We get it to 10 minutes, a maximum level caster would still need to memorize 3 of them, with buffs to go along with it, which wouldn't make it too overpowering.

Other alternative in IRC was making it 60sec/level. But I think that is a bit.... much. But putting it out here.

What are the thoughts of everyone? I am interested to hear.


There were some other topics discussed about how to make summoners more viable in the later game... I am curious to thoughts as well.

[Nachti]

An epic summoner should have to invest into some feats to be viable.

Feat X:
Requirements: Epic Focus: Conjuration, Augment Summoning, Epic Gate, 27 Spellcraft

But I personally think that Thaumaturge is a good class and doesnt need a change.

A duration change to gate? Why not but its subject to balancing and shouldnt be 1min/level.

[Seymor]

Feat X:
Requirements: Epic Focus: Conjuration, Augment Summoning, Epic Gate, 27 Spellcraft

I like it. Make it happen.

[Hawke]

The one suggestion was made in IRC about an epic feat that would give +6 to str,con,dex and add +x admantine or something similar to all summons. I like the idea of the Epic gate being the epic feat requirement.



But yes, for Gate, 1min/level is a bit much. That is why I think 10 minutes would be one of those "oh yeah, this class is there" and considering you only have so many level 9 spell slots, that you give up power to get a summons and of course all the buffing spells if you do multiple gates.

[Young Werther]

Add something so wizards can spontaneously cast summons from any slotted spell like a cleric can for healing/harm spells and if they are a sorcerer then give them the summoning I-IX as additional spells they never have to pick.

[dzidek1983]

Give him a special summon... something a wizard cant get vis normal spellcasting, should be fairly easy...

[Nachti]

Before I even consider making something new, the summons should be balanced and finished.

If you want to speed up the process, make a detailed review of

• brachina
• succubus
• erinye
• paeliryon
• tulani.

Or make new creature suggestions based upon lore. That helps more than brainstorming, immo.

[Hawke]

Add something so wizards can spontaneously cast summons from any slotted spell like a cleric can for healing/harm spells and if they are a sorcerer then give them the summoning I-IX as additional spells they never have to pick.

I don't think that would be fair to the druids. Since that is a thing they have. And pretty powerful, considering.

Nachti, I would, but I dont have a wizard who can summon those.

And JEGS isnt the best place to test things of this nature as somtimes things get... broke in translation.

I could, but it would mean some DM help with a temporary alignment shift.

[chad878262]

From a QC/balance perspective I would oppose spell conversion for Wizards anyway... They are powerful enough, and one of their very few flaws is the requirement of the player to plan ahead with spell selection. If you don't take enough summoning spells and go in to an area with Greater Dispel/Mords, losing your summon early than that is a mistake you should have to pay the price for (which for any halfway decent player the price is generally casting Ethereal Jaunt and going somewhere safe until you can rest/rememorize).

I can't speak to the lore side of things as that is the realm for DM's, but IMO this would not fly on that side either since it goes against the wizards requirement to study/memorize spells. How could a wizard convert Weird, that they IC'ly should have needed hours to memorize (along with their other spells) in to summoning a powerful ally?

[Young Werther]

From a QC/balance perspective I would oppose spell conversion for Wizards anyway... They are powerful enough, and one of their very few flaws is the requirement of the player to plan ahead with spell selection. If you don't take enough summoning spells and go in to an area with Greater Dispel/Mords, losing your summon early than that is a mistake you should have to pay the price for (which for any halfway decent player the price is generally casting Ethereal Jaunt and going somewhere safe until you can rest/rememorize).

Yeah it is too powerful especially for a 5 lvl prc. Perhaps if it was raised to 10 it could be considered. I am thinking how with palemaster you don't need the summoning spells so it's kind of a balanced around that.

I can't speak to the lore side of things as that is the realm for DM's, but IMO this would not fly on that side either since it goes against the wizards requirement to study/memorize spells. How could a wizard convert Weird, that they IC'ly should have needed hours to memorize (along with their other spells) in to summoning a powerful ally?

Could be the wizard is smart/dedicated enough to figure out universal conjuration memes and convert on the fly?

[chad878262]

Thaumaturge already gets a 'free' summon through contingent summoning. With the recent and continuing work being done to upgrade Summons I would think we should give it some time and see if the power levels even out. My crafter/quest giver Tarent has Thaumaturge 5 along with Master Alchemist and I always felt he did fairly well with his Greater Planar Binding summons fully buffed. Generally just let the summon go to town and only got involved if 4 or more mobs surrounded it, then would throw down a few AoEs that I gave the summon immunity to like Acid Cloud or Wall of Fire.

Can anyone provide specific detail about Greater Planar Binding summons to show what the issue is with them? I'm happy to work with Nachti further if the spell itself is not competitive, but would rather make the summons worthwhile rather than look at the class itself.

[Hawke]

The Greater Planar Binding being a level 8 spell just doesn't scale enough to handle higher end (not highest, not going for that) even fully buffed.

I think if they had another 5-10 AC and another 4-6 AB for the level 22+ content.

Some summons like the Moon Dog have abysmal AC, and mediocre AB with 3 attacks per round... BUT it comes with Mirror Image...not sure of multiple castings, and someone else says that it also castings improved Invisibility. If that is the case, then I can accept the role of this summons. As it would be able to tank, and do a little damage.

When you have offensive spells doing d6 / CL max CL 20, instead of being 10d6 to try to make things more viable, it only makes sense to have something for a Summoner PrC that requires 2 Feats as a requirement. You can say that it is a 5 level PrC.... if it is "Only" then make it require only one feat. It is pretty expensive compared to other 5 level PrCs with a meh powerbase to it.

A table for Thaumaturge with "custom" cohorts is interesting. It is A LOT of work to be sure. But if there was a way to get Planar Ally spell line to increase the "level" of the summons or something so at level 30, it could be a level 22 summons or something. So it doesn't take away from the Spirit Shaman/Ranger/Druid companions, but is able to hold their own against "trash" mobs of that level while fully buffed.

I am not sure of the how for implementation, but I just know that investing heavily into summons, just won't cut the mustard for what you get out of it.

I would be ok with suggesting Gate rock out at 10 minutes a cast, and that Epic Feat that adds to base attributes, adds some bonus damage... anything else would be gravy. Making the epic feat cost Spell Focus Conjuration, Augment Summon, Epic Gate, then Epic Feat... would be awesome. We have beckon the frozen, which adds extra damage and damage immunity/vulnerability... maybe piggyback on that code?

[Hawke]

Can anyone provide specific detail about Greater Planar Binding summons to show what the issue is with them? I'm happy to work with Nachti further if the spell itself is not competitive, but would rather make the summons worthwhile rather than look at the class itself.

Also, the bug with Augment Summon and Beckon the Frozen not working with Planar spells... Nachti is aware of that issue.

[dedude]

My feeling is that Thaumaturge is pretty fairly balanced once the augment bug is fixed. It will never be top-tier obviously, but the lore coolness is strong in this one.

The PRC doesn't scale into epics at all though, so I think the suggestion of an epic feat that boosts summons is a great idea. Brings it in line with the epic animal companion feat. Could call it Epic Augment Summoning. As a pre-req I would keep it at greater spell focus conjuration, making it a natural progression for Thaumaturge, while still keeping it open for all. Remember epic animal companion has had it's only real pre-req removed here. Additional pre-reqs could of course be added if the benefit of the feat is great enough.

[Young Werther]

Too bad there is no alienist prc in the works. That'd be fun to pair with.