Thayans, Thay, and opinions !

[kleomenes]

As I understand it Harpers do not need to be Harper Agents for a very similar reason.

This is because in lore relatively few Harpers have the "Harper Agent" class. It actually represents the Master Harper blessings of 2nd ed to a degree, so is a mark of an experienced Harper, rather than a requirement to become a Harper.

Thus its a false analogy and not really one that should be raised in this thread.

Oh so that's how we are going to explain away that none of the Harper's actually have the class.

There's nothing to explain. Most Harpers, in lore, don't have Harper Agent as a class. Making it a requirement to be a Harper would be lore breaking. Its not analagous to Thayan Knight.

My character does have the class though

[Rask]

People are way too fixated on this play your sheet thing. People bend that alllllllll the time. I mean how many paladin power builds on here have 3 levels of paladin in and nothing more than that. And yet walk around like they are the most devoted paladin around.

[JCVD1]

Just a small detour; I'm actually somewhat surprised by the new ruling and the allowance of 'lesser nobles'. In the past, coming from a noble background has always been conditionally approved (by DM only) on the basis it is not a current and active bloodline. For example; lesser nobles that have required their family be slain, or stripped of their titles. The belief was that active 'noble connections' would give an unfair advantage and/or cause players to lord over one another.

It allows the TK nothing special over anyone, or anything but it is required that you make an application with extensive Thayan Lore Knowledge. Minor noble, in that case means they were raised from commoner to "nobles", in Thay, for utmost loyalty and dedication to the nation of Thay and its rulers. It sounds only like an excuse/reason to force the class upon the players and justify the weeks of waiting for the Backstory to be approved.

[Asmodea]

Just a small detour; I'm actually somewhat surprised by the new ruling and the allowance of 'lesser nobles'. In the past, coming from a noble background has always been conditionally approved (by DM only) on the basis it is not a current and active bloodline. For example; lesser nobles that have required their family be slain, or stripped of their titles. The belief was that active 'noble connections' would give an unfair advantage and/or cause players to lord over one another.

It seems weird that the ruling -both- makes all TKs noble and people are calling for that to be a reason to keep it required. I know a few lore examples of people who 'became' Thayan Knights without being born them and I think it might often end up the case on the Server where people join up as a TK after being on the server for a bit, which would technically not be allowed now?

The TK PrC is a custom PrC added that the current RWs want to get rid of as a mechanical requirement to RP a Thayan Knight which as far as I know are only ever really described as Personal Bodyguards of Red Wizards and generals in Thayan Military. Even in its PrC description nothing about nobility is mentioned and I know of a few examples from books of Slaves turned Knights.

Regardless! Of all this though I think debates about TKs mechanical power or lore standing distract from the core of the issue: It's a custom PrC built for TKs on this server and the current RWs don't want it anymore as a requirement; forcing the class down their throats seem to have absolutely no upside regardless of 'Lore' or 'Mechanics'.

[Rask]

Just a small detour; I'm actually somewhat surprised by the new ruling and the allowance of 'lesser nobles'. In the past, coming from a noble background has always been conditionally approved (by DM only) on the basis it is not a current and active bloodline. For example; lesser nobles that have required their family be slain, or stripped of their titles. The belief was that active 'noble connections' would give an unfair advantage and/or cause players to lord over one another.

It seems weird that the ruling -both- makes all TKs noble and people are calling for that to be a reason to keep it required. I know a few lore examples of people who 'became' Thayan Knights without being born them and I think it might often end up the case on the Server where people join up as a TK after being on the server for a bit, which would technically not be allowed now?

The TK PrC is a custom PrC added that the current RWs want to get rid of as a mechanical requirement to RP a Thayan Knight which as far as I know are only ever really described as Personal Bodyguards of Red Wizards and generals in Thayan Military. Even in its PrC description nothing about nobility is mentioned and I know of a few examples from books of Slaves turned Knights.

Regardless! Of all this though I think debates about TKs mechanical power or lore standing distract from the core of the issue: It's a custom PrC built for TKs on this server and the current RWs don't want it anymore as a requirement; forcing the class down their throats seem to have absolutely no upside regardless of 'Lore' or 'Mechanics'.

In the past, when slave RP was allowed, this was something we used to use to get around the TK class requirement. Some people (most.) still wanted to use TK, and we RP'd these specific people as being more highly regarded in the guild, which is fine. But we also allowed others to join the ranks (as long as they were fighter builds.) that did not necessarily have the TK class, and they had to RP as a lowly slave and eventually either be "freed" by a good-aligned character or gain enough favour to be granted a squires standing, and eventually a knight's standing.

As far as the noble thing is concerned. It sounds to me (as per the DM post.) that it is really going to make little to no difference in the actual RP, or how anyone treats the Thayans IC right now. We all already RP as foreign lesser-nobles now, as we can't have slaves. It really makes no difference other than as said before, an excuse to force a weak PRC onto the guild.

[AlwaysSummer Day]

It seems weird that the ruling -both- makes all TKs noble and people are calling for that to be a reason to keep it required. I know a few lore examples of people who 'became' Thayan Knights without being born them and I think it might often end up the case on the Server where people join up as a TK after being on the server for a bit, which would technically not be allowed now?.

That is not part of the ruling. You can play a thayan and become a knight without the class. You just don't automatically attain knighthood without RP just by joining a guild on day 1.
It also isn't limited and exclusive to that guild.

The TK PrC is a custom PrC added that the current RWs want to get rid of as a mechanical requirement to RP a Thayan Knight which as far as I know are only ever really described as Personal Bodyguards of Red Wizards and generals in Thayan Military. Even in its PrC description nothing about nobility is mentioned and I know of a few examples from books of Slaves turned Knights.

Regardless! Of all this though I think debates about TKs mechanical power or lore standing distract from the core of the issue: It's a custom PrC built for TKs on this server and the current RWs don't want it anymore as a requirement; forcing the class down their throats seem to have absolutely no upside regardless of 'Lore' or 'Mechanics'.

So rename it to Thayan Warrior. Problem solved.

[Rask]

It seems weird that the ruling -both- makes all TKs noble and people are calling for that to be a reason to keep it required. I know a few lore examples of people who 'became' Thayan Knights without being born them and I think it might often end up the case on the Server where people join up as a TK after being on the server for a bit, which would technically not be allowed now?.

That is not part of the ruling. You can play a thayan and become a knight without the class. You just don't automatically attain knighthood without RP just by joining a guild on day 1.
It also isn't limited and exclusive to that guild.

The TK PrC is a custom PrC added that the current RWs want to get rid of as a mechanical requirement to RP a Thayan Knight which as far as I know are only ever really described as Personal Bodyguards of Red Wizards and generals in Thayan Military. Even in its PrC description nothing about nobility is mentioned and I know of a few examples from books of Slaves turned Knights.

Regardless! Of all this though I think debates about TKs mechanical power or lore standing distract from the core of the issue: It's a custom PrC built for TKs on this server and the current RWs don't want it anymore as a requirement; forcing the class down their throats seem to have absolutely no upside regardless of 'Lore' or 'Mechanics'.

So rename it to Thayan Warrior. Problem solved.

Do that, and remove its requirement, and the problem would actually be solved.

[mrm3ntalist]

Can the Thayan Knight be open for everyone if it is no longer mandatory for the Thayan guild?

[Asmodea]

Can the Thayan Knight be open for everyone if it is no longer mandatory for the Thayan guild?

I don't see why not. Open up the class to whoever wants to take it! Perhaps change its name to something that is less conflict prone like Thayan Warrior? Doesn't seem necessary though. Let the RWs handle who they want to call their Knights or not. Have people who want some kind of special connection to Thay NPCs outside of the Enclave to apply to DMs per norm.

[mrm3ntalist]

Can the Thayan Knight be open for everyone if it is no longer mandatory for the Thayan guild?

I don't see why not. Open up the class to whoever wants to take it! Perhaps change its name to something that is less conflict prone like Thayan Warrior? Doesn't seem necessary though. Let the RWs handle who they want to call their Knights or not. Have people who want some kind of special connection to Thay NPCs outside of the Enclave to apply to DMs per norm.

No, i dont want to play a Thayan Warrior. I would like to play a Thayan Knight. I cant join the guild though. If the guild does not want it, let other players ahve it.

[Asmodea]

No, i dont want to play a Thayan Warrior. I would like to play a Thayan Knight. I cant join the guild though. If the guild does not want it, let other players ahve it.

I actually was under the understanding you could currently play a Thayan Knight not associated with the Enclave you just needed DM approval. The name change would simply be if the DMs do not want to give whatever supposed implied or 'forced' background power comes with the title out to everyone. Taking it away from automatic 'status' or 'background power' from both those in the Enclave and outside. With those inside the Enclave holding as much power as the Enclave wished to say (within standard focal guild limits).

The idea that PCs could or should 'demand' the DMs acknowledge something is a recipe for disaster anyway. It's cooperative story telling. The mechanical side of things I really could care less about. TK could be the most powerful or least powerful PrC there is!

The current people who play martial Thayans don't want it and this all seems to boil down to people looking for reasons to justify going: 'You're not a real Knight!' or 'You must treat me like a real Thayan Knight!' both sentences under any circumstances will just start drama.

The RWs want to call people who don't take the TK class, TKs. If the PrC didn't exist we wouldn't even have any drama or debate about it. But somehow because the PrC is made everyone is fighting? I can't understand it.

[mrm3ntalist]

I actually was under the understanding you could currently play a Thayan Knight not associated with the Enclave you just needed DM approval. The name change would simply be if the DMs do not want to give whatever supposed implied or 'forced' background power comes with the title out to everyone.

If a DM can clear this up, that would be great. I always thought that you needed to be part of the guild to apply for the class. If that is not true then continue this discussion and try to solve the guilds problems. Just dont change the PRC. TK is what people want to play, not Thayan warriors or agents...

[Stonebar]

Thay lore wise has Guards in good numbers in enclaves, only a few of which are Thayen Knights. So why can one not play a guard, or guard-sergeant, or Lieutenant?

[Tantive]

As I understand it Harpers do not need to be Harper Agents for a very similar reason.

This is because in lore relatively few Harpers have the "Harper Agent" class. It actually represents the Master Harper blessings of 2nd ed to a degree, so is a mark of an experienced Harper, rather than a requirement to become a Harper.

Thus its a false analogy and not really one that should be raised in this thread.

Oh so that's how we are going to explain away that none of the Harper's actually have the class. What about scholars of candlekeep ? Same thing. I don't get the backlash. And as the DM noted it really isn't that big of a thing with the minor noble title.

Also Alwayssummer you completely misunderstand what thayan agents are. They aren't members of the guild.

False equivalents. Harpers have 5 different prcs for different roles, as they are not bound to a singular class. And as said don't require the prc to be one. Harper agent in this case is a field agent/scout. The Thayan Knights are bound to the prc. Arcane Scholar of Candlekeep has no lore background at all. It is a homebrew class created in Nwn2 by obsidian. Technically, it should have been dealt with sooner and renamed from the start to make a lick of sense, or the specific skills portions like improved empowered metamagic split up into selectable feats. Which I believe is a possibility in pnp?

[Asmodea]

If a DM can clear this up, that would be great. I always thought that you needed to be part of the guild to apply for the class. If that is not true then continue this discussion and try to solve the guilds problems. Just dont change the PRC. TK is what people want to play, not Thayan warriors or agents...

I think keeping Thayan Knight the same and just removing the TK class requirement for those of the Enclave who want to Bodyguard/Protect/Serve as the Right Hand of Red Wizards would work just fine.

From what I understand of this thread there being a Mechanical Requirement in order to serve a Knight of the Enclave is what is causing the issue. Some people think that inorder to get the 'RP respect' that comes with being a 'Thayan Knight' that a person should have to take the PrC.

Honestly if you ask me the problem is that you can't really mechanically input or enforce 'RP respect'. If you made a class that had really crappy stats ((Or really good! Doesn't matter)) and put a tag on it saying: People must IC respect your character. You're going to have drama. At every turn.

If all the people currently in the RW guild want to call pure Fighters Thayan Knights! I say let them. We would if we didn't have Thayan Knight as a PrC. If they want to have the PrC be required! Let them! If it is a requirement or not seems best left up to the players who are actually going to play the class and faction primarily on the server. 99% of the 'RP respect' that a PC gets will be determined by how other PCs react to them anyway.

I mean for hilarity sake imagine the Khazark walking up and going: "This is my Thayan Knight." and then a DM spawning some Thayan NPC to run over and go: "Actually they are not really a Thayan Knight!" nothing but tears will commence from all sides.

Tl;Dr: In short it does not seem unreasonable to me to let the RWs pick what Mechanical Representation they want for their own Thayan Knights. The Guild has always had headaches trying to keep membership levels high and if this helps them it is seemingly, to me, a very small change that honestly most people won't ever notice IG and certainly won't notice IC.