DM Dialectic wrote:Further, not being in the hierarchy of the School of Transmutation, your character would have no political power whatsoever over any Thayan in any of the Thayan Enclaves (or the Enclaves themselves) as they are all in the School of Transmutation and trying to "pull rank" on them would likely not be productive IC as such with your character not even being in the same School as the Enclaves (Transmutation).
What?
Just because Samas Kul reports to the Zulkir of Transmutation, does not make the Guild of Foreign Trade a Transmutation entity. It is a government-sponsored organization, every school has a stake in it (several zulkirs are on its directing board). Yes, Kul is a Transmutationist and the first Enclaves are all largely paid for out of Rhym's pocket (though Rhym being Zulkir already is a BGTSCC-specific thing, by lore Maligor is the Zulkir of Transmutation until 1362), but it's a misnomer to say that RWs in the service of other schools don't also work for it (especially considering all of the non-Transmutationists in BG's Enclave).
Lords of Darkness wrote:Several of the zulkirs are counted as members of the guild's directing board, although in practice they leave Samas Kul to administer the operation while collecting bribes and payoffs of staggering amounts for their forbearance and continued good will. In theory the Guild of Foreign Trade passes on all profits to the state, but in practice the state receives much less than the zulkirs (or other highly placed Red Wizards) who happen to have their hands in the till.
Many lesser Red Wizards are nominally employed in the guild, answering to Samas Kul while they direct the revenues generated through their work back to the zulkirs who sponsored them.
It's better to say that if your character is outside of the Enclave system/Guild of Foreign Trade, then you have no political power over Enclave/Guild members. Not that every RW Enclave member is part of Transmutation and RWs of other schools aren't.
Our current server lore does make the Enclaves (or at the very least any Enclaves in our server map, which is really the same thing as far as RP goes effectively in BGTSCC) exclusively Transmutation operated and controlled entities and this has been presented IC accordingly in RP we have run. Given the Enclaves have been pushed ahead in timeline from canon lore and given they are a very new construct, the DM Team considers them all investments and functionally supervised by the School of Transmutation solely for now. Enclaves sponsored by the Zulkir of Abjuration and Necromancy for example (mentioned in Lords of Darkness) are said not to exist yet in server lore. Right now, while other Zulkirs supporting the enclave initiative may or may not be on its board (such as the Zulkirs of Abjuration and Necromancy), they effectively have no control over the operations of the Enclaves (especially the ones far west and far from Thay) that exist currently in server lore unless there is a good RP reason otherwise, which really would require Transmutation and DM ascent (and has in the past as explained below).
As such, the Enclaves are exclusively a Transmutation controlled and owned operation currently in their infancy our server lore says -- though if members of this School of Transmutation hierarchy (such as the School of Transmutation's Baldur's Gate Thayan Enclave appointed guild leader, who does not have to be in the School of Transmutation by background necessarily, if DM approved, though currently is) had reason to give say an Enclave cooperating School such as Abjuration or Necromancy a position in an Enclave and such an app was DM approved, they could (and have), but this should not be assumed without the consent of ranking members of the School of Transmutation and the DM Team. This of course could change with time and RP. Given we moved up in time the Enclaves initiative, we also have ruled that Maligor was kicked out of power and supplanted early by Rhym as Zulkir of Transmutation.
I've not come across lore that suggests that Enclaves are solely under the rule of one school of magic. IIRC the Red Wizards prior to the current ones were mostly necromancers. Transmutation was less common until the current Khazark, which of course can explain a shift. However, I've always seen the Enclaves as a joint operation, with some zulkirs being more or less favourable to the initiative.
I'd quite like a re-write of the lore on the Red Wizard's guild page as it seems quite far apart from my understanding of lore, and if it has changed for the server, then it really should be written somewhere and not dropped as a surprise discovery.
Power is the most persuasive rhetoric. Friedrich von Schiller
Glowfire wrote:I've not come across lore that suggests that Enclaves are solely under the rule of one school of magic. IIRC the Red Wizards prior to the current ones were mostly necromancers. Transmutation was less common until the current Khazark, which of course can explain a shift. However, I've always seen the Enclaves as a joint operation, with some zulkirs being more or less favourable to the initiative.
I'd quite like a re-write of the lore on the Red Wizard's guild page as it seems quite far apart from my understanding of lore, and if it has changed for the server, then it really should be written somewhere and not dropped as a surprise discovery.
Any head (guild leader) of the Baldur's Gate Enclave would be assumed to be approved by the Guild of Foreign Trade and so effectively the School of Transmutation (which leadership they could approve for a member of a cooperating non-Transmutation school, such as Necromancy, and under which that Guild of Foreign Trade and effectively School of Transmutation approved Red Wizard leader of the Enclave, even if of a different School, could then appoint at his or her discretion Thayans of any School to ranks of the guild in the Enclave). If you think there is a lore problem with this given past occurrences (we don't immediately see one), just let us know and we can work through it, but this does not conflict at all lore wise with the head of the Red Wizard Baldur's Gate Enclave guild for example dividing up members into Circles of School membership, etc. The main point here is that a Red Wizard from say the School of Illusion cannot just show up and claim influence over the Baldur's Gate Enclave without higher up School of Transmutation appointed powers or rank given from the Guild of Foreign Trade and effectively School of Transmutation appointed Baldur's Gate Enclave leader (guild leader).
I honestly have no problem with it, I think it should be up to the guild really. It just struck me as odd that it seemed that a Red Wizard was a bit SOL if they weren't a Transmuter now.
Power is the most persuasive rhetoric. Friedrich von Schiller
Glowfire wrote:I honestly have no problem with it, I think it should be up to the guild really. It just struck me as odd that it seemed that a Red Wizard was a bit SOL if they weren't a Transmuter now.
They are not as long as the Baldur's Gate Thayan Enclave guild leader (already gone over how they are given powers lore wise) appoints them to a rank in the Enclave and delegates them a role. It could even be a guild created rank of Vice-Khazark for example for a non-Transmutation member if that is what the guild leader wants to do IC.
Glowfire wrote:I honestly have no problem with it, I think it should be up to the guild really. It just struck me as odd that it seemed that a Red Wizard was a bit SOL if they weren't a Transmuter now.
Welcome to the RW guild, where having surprise restrictions put on us and then being told "I's always been this way" but none of us ever knew about it, happens on the regular now.
It's pretty bad when the Kazark doesn't even know about it sometimes (Which is where this threads problems arose from.) , and he's been in the guild for like 6 years.
Rennec Rokranon, Chosen of Helm, Retired for now
Isra Wynterborne, Necromancer Hunter
Rask, The Lich, Retired
S.Ravenpath, collector and author of tall tales.
Nathka Blacksand - Khazark of the Enclave
Richter Bedevere - The Reveler and enjoyer of fine wines
DM Dialectic wrote:Further, not being in the hierarchy of the School of Transmutation, your character would have no political power whatsoever over any Thayan in any of the Thayan Enclaves (or the Enclaves themselves) as they are all in the School of Transmutation and trying to "pull rank" on them would likely not be productive IC as such with your character not even being in the same School as the Enclaves (Transmutation).
What?
Just because Samas Kul reports to the Zulkir of Transmutation, does not make the Guild of Foreign Trade a Transmutation entity. It is a government-sponsored organization, every school has a stake in it (several zulkirs are on its directing board). Yes, Kul is a Transmutationist and the first Enclaves are all largely paid for out of Rhym's pocket (though Rhym being Zulkir already is a BGTSCC-specific thing, by lore Maligor is the Zulkir of Transmutation until 1362), but it's a misnomer to say that RWs in the service of other schools don't also work for it (especially considering all of the non-Transmutationists in BG's Enclave).
Lords of Darkness wrote:Several of the zulkirs are counted as members of the guild's directing board, although in practice they leave Samas Kul to administer the operation while collecting bribes and payoffs of staggering amounts for their forbearance and continued good will. In theory the Guild of Foreign Trade passes on all profits to the state, but in practice the state receives much less than the zulkirs (or other highly placed Red Wizards) who happen to have their hands in the till.
Many lesser Red Wizards are nominally employed in the guild, answering to Samas Kul while they direct the revenues generated through their work back to the zulkirs who sponsored them.
It's better to say that if your character is outside of the Enclave system/Guild of Foreign Trade, then you have no political power over Enclave/Guild members. Not that every RW Enclave member is part of Transmutation and RWs of other schools aren't.
Our current server lore does make the Enclaves (or at the very least any Enclaves in our server map, which is really the same thing as far as RP goes effectively in BGTSCC) exclusively Transmutation operated and controlled entities and this has been presented IC accordingly in RP we have run. Given the Enclaves have been pushed ahead in timeline from canon lore and given they are a very new construct, the DM Team considers them all investments and functionally supervised by the School of Transmutation solely for now. Enclaves sponsored by the Zulkir of Abjuration and Necromancy for example (mentioned in Lords of Darkness) are said not to exist yet in server lore. Right now, while other Zulkirs supporting the enclave initiative may or may not be on its board (such as the Zulkirs of Abjuration and Necromancy), they effectively have no control over the operations of the Enclaves (especially the ones far west and far from Thay) that exist currently in server lore unless there is a good RP reason otherwise, which really would require Transmutation and DM ascent (and has in the past as explained below).
As such, the Enclaves are exclusively a Transmutation controlled and owned operation currently in their infancy our server lore says -- though if members of this School of Transmutation hierarchy (such as the School of Transmutation's Baldur's Gate Thayan Enclave appointed guild leader, who does not have to be in the School of Transmutation by background necessarily, if DM approved, though currently is) had reason to give say an Enclave cooperating School such as Abjuration or Necromancy a position in an Enclave and such an app was DM approved, they could (and have), but this should not be assumed without the consent of ranking members of the School of Transmutation and the DM Team. This of course could change with time and RP. Given we moved up in time the Enclaves initiative, we also have ruled that Maligor was kicked out of power and supplanted early by Rhym as Zulkir of Transmutation.
Transmutation may have the majority control over them, that much is fine, but it's a pretty wide leap to say that all members of the Enclave are all members of the School of Transmutation, which is what you said in your first post. If that was the case then there should not be any RWs of any specializations other than Transmutation in the Enclave. A necromancer working for the Enclave might be more or less profiting the School of Transmutation's efforts but that necromancer is not himself part of the School of Transmutation, just an Enclave/Guild of Foreign Trade employee.
Tarina — The Witch of Darkhold, a dealer in spirits and black magic
Rhifox wrote:Transmutation may have the majority control over them, that much is fine, but it's a pretty wide leap to say that all members of the Enclave are all members of the School of Transmutation, which is what you said in your first post. If that was the case then there should not be any RWs of any specializations other than Transmutation in the Enclave. A necromancer working for the Enclave might be more or less profiting the School of Transmutation's efforts but that necromancer is not himself part of the School of Transmutation, just an Enclave/Guild of Foreign Trade employee.
DM Dialectic wrote:For example, in the past, the DM Team has approved Red Wizard applications (and Thayan Knight applications would be no different) for Red Wizards in the service of the Thayan Schools of Abjuration and Enchantment, respectively. These Thayan characters then operated entirely outside of the Baldur's Gate Thayan Enclave (and guild) as a result IC. The trade off is of course that they could utilize not an ounce of power of the Enclaves (unless granted by the effectively School of Transmutation Guild of Foreign Trade or its appointed Enclave leadership) since these are outside of their schools. The School of Transmutation and the Baldur's Gate Thayan Enclave under it (and therefore the Thayan Enclave guild) are the largest power center of Thay in our server setting (plug for the Baldur's Gate Thayan Enclave guild: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=3163).
Rask wrote:Welcome to the RW guild, where having surprise restrictions put on us and then being told "I's always been this way" but none of us ever knew about it, happens on the regular now.
It's pretty bad when the Kazark doesn't even know about it sometimes (Which is where this threads problems arose from.) , and he's been in the guild for like 6 years.
I am not sure what "surprise restrictions" you are referring to here, so clarification would be helpful. I will try to guess on a few alleged though. The Thayan Knight and Red Wizard classes have been application only since at least 2011. The lore on the School of Transmutation and the Guild of Foreign Trade and Enclaves (first presented in RP with the Thayan Enclave guild in January/February 2016 as it did not really have an opportunity to come up before then) does not restrict the Baldur's Gate Thayan Enclave in any unique manner OOC as the head of the Baldur's Gate Thayan Enclave guild would need to be DM approved once decided by the guild members OOC anyways given the guild is a canon lore based guild. Once approved, the guild leader can really organize his or her individual Enclave how they wish in terms of different Schools as mentioned earlier, so there is no new OOC restriction upon the guild leader/guild in that regard either.
I didn't miss it, no, but the way you have it written is very confusing. The implication with what you said was that if you are an abjurer, enchanter, evoker, necromancer, whatever, then you are either not a member of the Enclave or you are in the School of Transmutation despite not being a Transmuter. If I understand your clarifications correctly, then it is that non-Transmuters are normally outside the Enclave, but the Khazark can choose to employ such characters to work for the Enclave, and that it is in this capacity that current non-Transmuters work for the Enclave. And presumably that such employment does not entail suddenly becoming part of the School of Transmutation.
The line that confused things was the statement that all members of the Enclave are 'all in the School of Transmutation'. So, thank you for clarifying for me.
Tarina — The Witch of Darkhold, a dealer in spirits and black magic
Rhifox wrote:I didn't miss it, no, but the way you have it written is very confusing. The implication with what you said was that if you are an abjurer, enchanter, evoker, necromancer, whatever, then you are either not a member of the Enclave or you are in the School of Transmutation despite not being a Transmuter. If I understand your clarifications correctly, then it is that non-Transmuters are normally outside the Enclave, but the Khazark can choose to employ such characters to work for the Enclave, and that it is in this capacity that current non-Transmuters work for the Enclave. And presumably that such employment does not entail suddenly becoming part of the School of Transmutation.
The line that confused things was the statement that all members of the Enclave are 'all in the School of Transmutation'. So, thank you for clarifying for me.
Your summary of the clarification is spot on. The only bit I'd add is that a Khazark could be of another School as well if approved by the Guild of Foreign Trade and effectively the Zulkir of Transmutation (meaning with DM permission OOC once the guild members OOC decided on a new leader if they wanted to, which effectively allows for say a School of Necromancy member to be guild leader if that is what players decided OOC).
AC81 wrote:Tell me again how this class is weak mechanically? Especially considering it will almost always have a wizard companion with it. It is no better or worse than the majority of melee prc's (except DD but even they are racially limited) but it has also has very cool lore surrounding it. If I were to make a Thayan PC, I'd definitely use this class and I'd bet I could make several VERY powerful warriors who would be total wrecking balls with a high level Red Wizard behind them.
But anyway, mechanics aside, if the Thayan guild doesn't want their knights to take the Thayan Knight PrC, why make them. Just rebrand it and let the community have it. Who cares? Just don't say it's underpowered, because that isn't the case.
