chad878262 wrote:R16/IB5/A9 doesn't take IB for feint, it's really just the+5 AC. If you think you'll be fine without it you can skip.
Regarding the other build, R16/GT4/WS7/SD3 only loses 1 AC, but gains another d6 sneak dice. Which you prefer is your choice, but both will still get epic dodge .
Thanks once more if I did skip one GT level I could theoretically gain one more WS level for that extra AC unless I lack the feat.
Any thought on kukri vs dagger? Probably doesn't fit into a tight build due to the extra feat required?
Sneak attack doesn't crit so your crit damage will be pathetic (remember we talked about your damage is solely reliant on sneak attack). Kukri is a waste of a feat in a feat starved build. Stealthy or skill focus: move silently is far better... Or luck of heroes, two weapon defence, combat expertise, deadly defense, blind fight, etc. Martial weapons proficiency in a feat starved build for a possible extra ~2.5-3.5 damage about 15-25% of the time is pretty poor use of such a limited commodity as feats.
Also, unless you have luck of hero's and two weapon defense in your build I wouldn't give up the feat for 1AC. camouflage is the reason you are taking WS and you get that at 7. For a sneak it might be the best quality of life feat in the game.
chad878262 wrote:Sneak attack doesn't crit so your crit damage will be pathetic (remember we talked about your damage is solely reliant on sneak attack). Kukri is a waste of a feat in a feat starved build. Stealthy or skill focus: move silently is far better... Or luck of heroes, two weapon defence, combat expertise, deadly defense, blind fight, etc. Martial weapons proficiency in a feat starved build for a possible extra ~2.5-3.5 damage about 15-25% of the time is pretty poor use of such a limited commodity as feats.
Also, unless you have luck of hero's and two weapon defense in your build I wouldn't give up the feat for 1AC. camouflage is the reason you are taking WS and you get that at 7. For a sneak it might be the best quality of life feat in the game.
I was thinking kukri for crit to bypass high AC rather than the extra damage as a crit would be guaranteed to hit
I am at the point of giving up on these 3 PRC builds, Wilderness Stalker requires 8 Survival which is not a class skill leading to it being available only very late. All in all this 3 PRC thing leads to lots of things being hard to get and if I wanna get SD early I need to invest in the crappy dodge and mobility feats early which makes that part also annoyingly hard due to a lack of offensive feats.
Considering to go R/GT/Assassin without any IB as that might probably end up being easier to build and get crucial feats earlier except for a pretty late HiPS.
Gah really difficult to make a decent build... and just cause I could fit all kinds of things in there it really doesnt mean it will be fun to play for a lot of the levels.
At work, but if you want a specific build to use as a baseline let me know what race/class split and I will send you one. Shadow Dancer HiPS at level 8 is worth crappy dodge/mobility if you want to go that route because until you get HiPS leveling a rogue sucks. Assassin is more powerful, but get's HiPS later so harder to level.
Again, if you are having trouble feel free to comment on the build split you are interested in and if no one else makes you a baseline before I get back to my hotel I will make one.
chad878262 wrote:At work, but if you want a specific build to use as a baseline let me know what race/class split and I will send you one. Shadow Dancer HiPS at level 8 is worth crappy dodge/mobility if you want to go that route because until you get HiPS leveling a rogue sucks. Assassin is more powerful, but get's HiPS later so harder to level.
Again, if you are having trouble feel free to comment on the build split you are interested in and if no one else makes you a baseline before I get back to my hotel I will make one.
So what I know for sure is that I want a human as race.
I could imagine Rogue/GT/Assassin possibly IB although I think that would get pretty crunchy. Guess if I need epic dodge there would only be 3 IB levels not even sure that is worth the investment at all. So probably rather R/GT/Assassin. Always when I used GT it felt like the feats it offers need to be gotten relatively early cause they are "low feats". For IB its pretty perfect otherwise it feels like only weapon finesse as must have feat and maybe blind fight as a more situational/PvP feat. This is why when I havent included IB it felt like 3 GT levels were the best way to go at it.
The other option I see is Rogue/GT/SD. This is where I hoped to be able to inlcude WS but it feels like it would be just not fun to play cause everything would come very late.
An idea that just came to mind would be including IB in here but I am not sure how that works out feat wise considering how many feats are required for the different PRCs.
So yea the basis is Rogue and Guild Thief, something to get HiPS and if you didnt tell me Epic dodge was as good as you did I think leaving it out would reduce a lot of pressure on the building. Tried to include WS but it feels like it will just delay EVERYTHING so hard that playing the character will be unpleasant but if you could find a way to do it it would be nice.
The Assassin addition feels really interesting but very difficult again with IB without it it would probably be a lot easier to build.
I guess I am making this a lot more complicated with wanting Guild Thief but it is just an absolute must have RPwise.
The bleeding damage from IB is not worth considering. It's really just the AC that matters and you can get by without it. And if you did something like rogue/gt/sd, i think you'll find you have enough extra feats to take things like Luck of Heroes to make up some of it. And SD evade gives you a little AC boost when needed as well.
The thing about playing a low level Rogue... Is that you can actually make do with just a heavy crossbow (1d10) and few stacks of mundane bolts. With medium BAB progression you will have 6 BAB around level 8~. Thus for the first few levels, no matter what you, you are stuck with just one attack per round. Hence, you take that heavy crossbow and make use of its range to draw in single enemies and use a corners to break the line of sight to get bit of sneak attack damage every now and then.
Thus you can get Shadowdancer as early as possible, and you can make it a little smoother by just using a Heavy Crossbow for the moment.
Good places to level up would be the Bandit Cave north of Baldur's Gate's Palace District, and the the first level of Hilltop Ruins on the southern bank of the River Chiontar. These are both areas that you will be able to solo without very large risk, and most low level players will check the Scrying Tool and come join you - which removes a lot of the risks on your part and you can just tag with them to wherever... Another good place to level up would be the Temple Ruins below Soubar, but none one apart from me seems to know how to find that place...
" I am no longer here, the elves of the Sword Coast are just far too horrible... "
Comments Only wrote:The build doesn't load. Have you made it public?
Yea I fear it broke somehow... So much work going to waste yay... You could search it via Rogue/GuildThief/Assassin but it doesn't display if you click on it...
Happy to make a build for you, but need a bit more direction.
Guild Thief is a bit limited as the bonus feat list is crap (no epic feats and only a dozen feats or so are on the list they can select from). GT bonus feats can help you qualify for IB (Combat Expertise, Weapon Focus: Daggger, Feint are all on the list) or it can help qualify for Wilderness Stalker (Track is on the list). However, Dodge and Mobility are not on the list, otherwise my first choice would be to go Rogue19/SD3/GT4/WD4. You could still do this, but the GT feats are not really must have so you aren't getting the 'most' out of the class. Still, if you find that split interesting I am happy to put together a build plan for you.
What Guild Thief is really good for is if you want to go R16/SD3/WS7/GT4 (taking Track with GT2 and then maybe Blindfight w/ GT4) OR if you want to go R16/GT4/IB5/SD5 where GT2 and GT4 can be taken earlier (preferably ASAP after you get SD) and you can use the bonus feats to qualify for IB (Weapon Focus, CE, Feint...you need all 3 and GT2 and 4 takes care of 2 of them).
Now, the way you build either of the 3 differen splits I listed above is to go Rogue to 7, taking SD1 at 8. Then you either keep all 3 PRCs to 3 or 4 levels, with the goal being to take Rogue 10 at level 21. So at level 20, you could for instance have R9/SD3/GT4/IB4, as an example. This allows you to take Crippling Strike as your bonus feat at level 21 (Rogue 10) as well as Epic Precision. So again, if any of the 3 above builds is something you are interested in, or if you can clarify what you want I'm happy to give you a baseline to work from.
You'll notice I haven't mentioned Assassin... Based on what you are going for it just doesn't seem to me you want to play an Assassin. Indeed, while more powerful, an Assassin is also more painful to level. You get HiPS later and, unless you are only going to have 3 classes you won't get Epic Precision at 21. So I didn't recommend any Assassin builds. However, if I have misread you then feel free to correct me and I can put something together with Assassin...You just have to understand that, like many "Power builds" (in quotes because a sneak on this server is never really going to be a power build) it matures a bit later and thus can be more difficult to play if you don't know what you are doing.
Regarding Epic Dodge and AC in general...
If you don't mind working toward having the gold to afford hell gear, and if the fact that the shop is in Avernus doesn't put you off, AC is less important. This is because now you can (finally!) have gear that grants both +4 AC and bonuses to stealth. In the past Rogue builds could get +2 Natural AC, +2 Dodge AC and +2 Deflection AC if they wanted to have enough stealth to be ok in epic areas. This was somewhat acceptable because before the dispel fix wands were available to supplement AC / defenses and weren't dispelabe since CL was based on character level. However, the lack of AC made IB +5 AC and Epic Dodge basically required to be survivable. Now you can get by without it, but you still need to build with AC, AB in mind and you have to think about how you will defend yourself against your abysmal will saves and not much better fortitude saves.
Calculate AC as 10 + (DEX bonus) + 3 (Tumble) + (feats such as LoH) + (any class bonuses such as INT to AC or bonus AC some classes get) + 16 (armor, dodge, deflection, natural) and try to end up with a number of 40 at the bare minimum. Then you can use things like wands/potions of Shied for +4 when needed, or apply CE if you have it (though be careful of your AB).
Calculate your AB as BAB + (DEX bonus) + (feats) + (any bonuses you get from class abilities) and try to end up with at least 38. You can get by with ~35, but you will absolutely need potions/wands of (gr) heroism, aid and bless at least until you get EW and even when you have it those buffs will help against the few bosses you can actually fight.
Your Will saves will SUCK and your fortitude saves won't be much better. So make sure you have wands of Death Ward, Protection from Evil, Invisibility and Silence. Silence on the ground will give you a chance if you're quick enough against Yuan-Ti Queen. Prot from evil and Death Ward will give some protection when you get caught with a nasty spell you'd otherwise never save against.
if I did skip one GT level I could theoretically gain one more WS level for that extra AC unless I lack the feat.
camouflage is the reason you are taking WS and you get that at 7. For a sneak it might be the best quality of life feat in the game.