Help with an Assassin/thief kind of build

[K'yon Oblodra]

Happy to make a build for you, but need a bit more direction.

Guild Thief is a bit limited as the bonus feat list is crap (no epic feats and only a dozen feats or so are on the list they can select from). GT bonus feats can help you qualify for IB (Combat Expertise, Weapon Focus: Daggger, Feint are all on the list) or it can help qualify for Wilderness Stalker (Track is on the list). However, Dodge and Mobility are not on the list, otherwise my first choice would be to go Rogue19/SD3/GT4/WD4. You could still do this, but the GT feats are not really must have so you aren't getting the 'most' out of the class. Still, if you find that split interesting I am happy to put together a build plan for you.

Not liking the WD much although the coesion in that build is pretty strong considering the requirements for WD and SD and the bonus feats from GT fitting for IB.

What Guild Thief is really good for is if you want to go R16/SD3/WS7/GT4 (taking Track with GT2 and then maybe Blindfight w/ GT4) OR if you want to go R16/GT4/IB5/SD5 where GT2 and GT4 can be taken earlier (preferably ASAP after you get SD) and you can use the bonus feats to qualify for IB (Weapon Focus, CE, Feint...you need all 3 and GT2 and 4 takes care of 2 of them).

I really like the R16/SD3/WS7/GT4 the other one, don't know IB is kinda cool from AC and AB point of view but these values feel so passive that I don't really like the class too much.
I was thinking about a build possibly working with R13/SD5/WS7 or 8/GT5 or 4. SD5 would grant Defensive Roll allowing me to cut 3 Rogue levels while only needing 2 more SD freeing up one level for the other two classes. WS8 would give me one more high BAB level and one more AC. GT 5 would give me the one more sneak attack and 2 more skillpoints compared to WS. I really like the Camouflage on this just seems super sexy to me. The fact that survival is cross class is really hindering here.

Now, the way you build either of the 3 differen splits I listed above is to go Rogue to 7, taking SD1 at 8. Then you either keep all 3 PRCs to 3 or 4 levels, with the goal being to take Rogue 10 at level 21. So at level 20, you could for instance have R9/SD3/GT4/IB4, as an example. This allows you to take Crippling Strike as your bonus feat at level 21 (Rogue 10) as well as Epic Precision. So again, if any of the 3 above builds is something you are interested in, or if you can clarify what you want I'm happy to give you a baseline to work from.

Rogue 10 at 20 would mean what kind of split for the R13/16/WS/SD/GT build?

You'll notice I haven't mentioned Assassin... Based on what you are going for it just doesn't seem to me you want to play an Assassin. Indeed, while more powerful, an Assassin is also more painful to level. You get HiPS later and, unless you are only going to have 3 classes you won't get Epic Precision at 21. So I didn't recommend any Assassin builds. However, if I have misread you then feel free to correct me and I can put something together with Assassin...You just have to understand that, like many "Power builds" (in quotes because a sneak on this server is never really going to be a power build) it matures a bit later and thus can be more difficult to play if you don't know what you are doing.

I really like the idea of a stunned opponent just eating my Sneak attacks so the Assassin feels like the other very interesting option to me. I wonder could one just survive without the epic precision by going into other areas where it is not needed until one has it? I havent gotten to epic levels yet . I had created a R19/Assassin8/GT3 build that I thought was decent but I haven't checked it with your below mentioned points in mind and it just doesn't save GRRRR...

Regarding Epic Dodge and AC in general...

If you don't mind working toward having the gold to afford hell gear, and if the fact that the shop is in Avernus doesn't put you off, AC is less important. This is because now you can (finally!) have gear that grants both +4 AC and bonuses to stealth. In the past Rogue builds could get +2 Natural AC, +2 Dodge AC and +2 Deflection AC if they wanted to have enough stealth to be ok in epic areas. This was somewhat acceptable because before the dispel fix wands were available to supplement AC / defenses and weren't dispelabe since CL was based on character level. However, the lack of AC made IB +5 AC and Epic Dodge basically required to be survivable. Now you can get by without it, but you still need to build with AC, AB in mind and you have to think about how you will defend yourself against your abysmal will saves and not much better fortitude saves.

Calculate AC as 10 + (DEX bonus) + 3 (Tumble) + (feats such as LoH) + (any class bonuses such as INT to AC or bonus AC some classes get) + 16 (armor, dodge, deflection, natural) and try to end up with a number of 40 at the bare minimum. Then you can use things like wands/potions of Shied for +4 when needed, or apply CE if you have it (though be careful of your AB).

Calculate your AB as BAB + (DEX bonus) + (feats) + (any bonuses you get from class abilities) and try to end up with at least 38. You can get by with ~35, but you will absolutely need potions/wands of (gr) heroism, aid and bless at least until you get EW and even when you have it those buffs will help against the few bosses you can actually fight.

Thanks for these super interesting guidelines I gotta say all the different AC types are still a bit puzzling. I think they changed the way armor works, in my old days armor was gained by armors and by the magic armor spells and the enhancement bonus on armors used to be deflection. Now this is armor and armor as enhancement bonus which seems to stack with the spells armor. Then there is Dodge AC which used to be the only AC that stacks with itself, not sure that is still the case.

AB-wise I guess the wilderness stalker build would get the best values.

Your Will saves will SUCK and your fortitude saves won't be much better. So make sure you have wands of Death Ward, Protection from Evil, Invisibility and Silence. Silence on the ground will give you a chance if you're quick enough against Yuan-Ti Queen. Prot from evil and Death Ward will give some protection when you get caught with a nasty spell you'd otherwise never save against.

I am excited to get into these mechanically more challenging areas although my lag might get me killed too often to really make it enjoyable .

To summarize it, I would love to have a baseline for the assassin and the wilderness stalker build, let me know if the R13/SD5/GT/WS thing is a good idea or rather not .
If I could I would probably try to combine WS and Assassin and GT cause the trademark abilities are just so damn cool.

While we're at it yet another question, is the assassin spellbook really as limited in spells as it is in the wiki. Feels like it only has like 4 spells per tier.

[chad878262]

Not liking the WD much although the coesion in that build is pretty strong considering the requirements for WD and SD and the bonus feats from GT fitting for IB.

To each there own, the nice thing about WD is the 'free' SF: Hide, MS and one other (bluff, UMD, or spot most likely). Since you are taking the feats for SD anyway getting the skill focus feats makes up for it, if HiPS doesn't already!

I really like the R16/SD3/WS7/GT4 the other one, don't know IB is kinda cool from AC and AB point of view but these values feel so passive that I don't really like the class too much.
I was thinking about a build possibly working with R13/SD5/WS7 or 8/GT5 or 4. SD5 would grant Defensive Roll allowing me to cut 3 Rogue levels while only needing 2 more SD freeing up one level for the other two classes. WS8 would give me one more high BAB level and one more AC. GT 5 would give me the one more sneak attack and 2 more skillpoints compared to WS. I really like the Camouflage on this just seems super sexy to me. The fact that survival is cross class is really hindering here.

As I said, to each there own, but you aren't comparing correctly. There is something called 'the rule of 4' you should consider when building with Medium BAB classes. That is, they are best stopped at levels divisible by 4 while levels 1 higher are the worst places to stop... So, level 1, 5, 9, 13, 17, etc. each lose 1 BAB, so stopping at level 5 SD and level 5 GT is losing a total of 4 BAB while stopping at 13 Rogue is losing 4 more, for a total BAB of 22. Meanwhile, Rogue 16 still only loses 4 BAB, while SD3 and GT 4 only lose 2 total, thus your BAB on a R16/SD3/GT4/WS7 is 24. Meanwhile, the 13/5/8/4 build loses 4 BAB from Rogue, 2 from SD and 1 from GT, for BAB 23 and the 13/5/7/5 loses another BAB from GT5 ending at 22. So the R16 build has the best BAB of the 3 options. Going to WS8 will gain you 1 AC, but lose you 1 BAB and 1 sneak dice. Going GT5 instead will lose you 2 BAB and gains you nothing.

Rogue 10 at 20 would mean what kind of split for the R13/16/WS/SD/GT build?

Rogue 10 at/by 21, not 20. The split at level 20 would probably be something like R9/GT4/WS4/SD3. You then take Rogue 10 at 21 and you should probably take the other rogue levels before the WS levels, meaning Camouflage doesn't come until 30. While this sucks a bit, if you take R16 at 30 you won't be able to take Epic Dodge. You need Defensive Roll and Improved Evasion (as well as 25 DEX and 30 Tumble) on or before 28 so you can take Epic Dodge with your last feat.

I wonder could one just survive without the epic precision by going into other areas where it is not needed until one has it?

Of course, but limiting yourself further can make things un-fun. You can absolutely do so, but it reduces the areas you will be survivable/effective in which for me would make things get old fast considering how long it takes to level in epics. You are the only one that can decide if this will limit you too much to be fun.

Thanks for these super interesting guidelines I gotta say all the different AC types are still a bit puzzling. I think they changed the way armor works, in my old days armor was gained by armors and by the magic armor spells and the enhancement bonus on armors used to be deflection. Now this is armor and armor as enhancement bonus which seems to stack with the spells armor. Then there is Dodge AC which used to be the only AC that stacks with itself, not sure that is still the case.

AB-wise I guess the wilderness stalker build would get the best values.

I grew up on 1e/2e so I feel your pain. 3.x seems designed to capture a generation that was not satisfied with anything less than monster numbers. It is also the edition when characters became 'builds'. That said, the mechanics of it are a lot of fun (for me at least), and once you get used to it you learn to separate out the mechanical building aspect from the roleplay. For me, some feats in my personal builds are always selected around the way I want to RP the character and others are selected for the way I want to play the game. While builds that I offer in the forums are generally optimized unless requested otherwise, I have fun making unique builds for my play times. Like an Arcane Trickster that uses Perfect Two Weapon Fighting instead of RTA's, or a Roguish Monk that mixes WD and SD instead of Assassin, losing a few sneak/death attack dice, but gaining epic dodge and better stealth. There are others, but I wouldn't want to give away too much of my personal characters. Point being, a lot depends on your skill as a player, not just your build. I can deal with dying occasionally and eating an XP hit, though I don't like it, it won't make me rage quit either. Therefore, I will try to take on bosses before I am probably ready some times, to see if I can do it...Likewise, I know there are certain things I can use to mitigate weaknesses. Thus even my no armor wearing builds currently on the server still don't have evasion/EW or epic dodge! It is not needed, if you are willing to use alternative methods to ensure survivability and damage.

While we're at it yet another question, is the assassin spellbook really as limited in spells as it is in the wiki. Feels like it only has like 4 spells per tier.

It's limited, but the spells are quite useful. Ghostly Visage is meh, but a little concealment is better than none. Everything is magic in the epics so the DR isn't going to do anything. Cat's Grace isn't something you should rely on, especially now that +4 DEX item can be purchased, but Fox's Cunning gives +2 to your Death Attack DC's. You also have very useful Freedom of Movement and Improved Invisibility, which if I recall is still considered an extended spell. Finally, Invisibility can stand in for Camouflage when you want to 'stealth run' since you get Camo so late.

To summarize it, I would love to have a baseline for the assassin and the wilderness stalker build, let me know if the R13/SD5/GT/WS thing is a good idea or rather not .
If I could I would probably try to combine WS and Assassin and GT cause the trademark abilities are just so damn cool.

Here is the Assassin version, since that seems like the one you are more interested in.

http://nwn2db.com/build/?264262

AB: 23 (BAB) + 10 (DEX w/ +4 item/cat's grace) + 1 (Epic Prowess) - 2 (PTWF) +4 (EB) = 36, which can be buffed long term to 28 with a Wand of Heroism and to 40 short term with Aid/Bless. 41 with Haste (36 is plenty for HiPS, you should not generally need the buffs, or Heroism at most, which will last a long time).

AC: 10 + 10 (DEX) + 16 (Armor/Deflection/Dodge/Natural) + 1 (LoH) + 1 (TWD) + 3 (Tumble) + 1 (WS) = 42, 44 with a wand of Improved Mage Armor (lasts basically until rest or dispelled), 48 with a Wand of Shield, 49 with Haste (again, this is plenty for a HiPS build and frankly is fine for most builds... Add a wand of mirror images and cast Improved Invisibility and you have short term near immunity to physical attacks).

[K'yon Oblodra]

This build is pretty awesome, I guess we aren't worried about epic dodge cause we get enough other defensive tools?

I'm torn on able learner, my initial idea was to get only the bare minimum of points in survival but getting track and swift tracker not utilizing them does seem like a waste.

I might get in trouble with my skill points like this. I wanted to have max appraise, Hide, MS, Tumble 30 also since I wanted to utilize traps unless you say it's utterly useless I wanted to get disable and set traps to max or I guess there are thresholds that are enough if one reaches them. Then there are open locks and UMD which probably need some kind of threshold value as well.

I am amazed by the way you unraveled how my idea with SD5 loses me BAB never would have thought so but guess it makes sense if you've done your share of builds .

The last thing is that I would like to have charisma of 12 so I would probably go with only 16 or 17 dex to start with. Should be okay right? That is an RP relevant change as I want to have a somewhat charming personality.

My Drow in the UD is a complete RP build nothing min maxed but since I already heard about sneak types being hard to play on this server even more so I wanted to go a bit more streamlined here.

If you could help me with these threshold values on skills that'd be super. Hopefully I can save my next build...

Thanks once more for your massive help;).

[chad878262]

This build is pretty awesome, I guess we aren't worried about epic dodge cause we get enough other defensive tools?

It Can't get Epic Dodge because you wanted Assassin and WS, that is taking up 15 levels to get HiPS and Camouflage, 19 when you consider Guild Thief. Need 16 levels of Rogue to get Epic Dodge (or less if you go 5 levels of SD). Point being, Epic Dodge is not possible for the build type you requested. That said, it is not 'needed', but it would put the build on par with the tier 2 builds if it had it, effectively turning it in to the equivalent of a ~50+ AC Character that also has strong damage potential.

I'm torn on able learner, my initial idea was to get only the bare minimum of points in survival but getting track and swift tracker not utilizing them does seem like a waste.

I might get in trouble with my skill points like this. I wanted to have max appraise, Hide, MS, Tumble 30 also since I wanted to utilize traps unless you say it's utterly useless I wanted to get disable and set traps to max or I guess there are thresholds that are enough if one reaches them. Then there are open locks and UMD which probably need some kind of threshold value as well.

The issue with Rogue builds is even with the most skill points in the game it's never enough!
You may want to seriously consider R16/SD3/GT4/WS7. It will have a few more skill points than the build I posted which can help if you are missing out on some key skills you wanted. Able Learner was really for Survival and because if I had finished the skills I would have grabbed 15 Spellcraft. However, even with the +3 Saves, your saves are so bad that you would still pretty much auto-fail. So you can probably skip it. Also, if you don't mind delaying HiPS you could spread out Wilderness Stalker a bit to avoid having too many issues with increasing survival. You take GT early to get Track at GT2, then you take the first level of WS ASAP. When you take it you put all your points in survival, then you spend 3-4 levels making up the lost points in Hide/MS/Tumble/Spot/Appraisal/whatever else you want to max, then you take WS 2 and dump all points in Survival again. Doing this will save you points and a feat, but can make leveling a bit more difficult since you will delay HiPS by probably 3-4 levels.

I am amazed by the way you unraveled how my idea with SD5 loses me BAB never would have thought so but guess it makes sense if you've done your share of builds .

Just remember the rule of 4 and you'll do fine with figuring out when a level split might have potential problems.

The last thing is that I would like to have charisma of 12 so I would probably go with only 16 or 17 dex to start with. Should be okay right? That is an RP relevant change as I want to have a somewhat charming personality.

You can lower DEX to 17 (but not 16, you won't get PTWF if you do that), will still get to 25 so long as you keep the exact Epic Feats I took in place, specifically the Great DEX 1 feat, though you don't want to change any of the other ones either. You will then use a +3 DEX item too reach 28 DEX instead of a +4 item to reach 30, so your AB and AC will be 1 lower. AB should still be ok, but you will probably want to make getting a wand of heroism a top priority. That will get CHA to 11, so if you were planning on using a +3 CHA item it's a good enough stopping point. You could, however also reduce STR and CON by 1 each and use the Ring of Might (about 20K on Mudd's Auction) instead of the belt from Avernus, for instance.

[Egg Shen]

Doesn't the TWD line of feats grant a shield Bonus to AC? If so, I wouldn't bother taking it, as you should really be acquiring a wand of shield asap.

[chad878262]

Doesn't the TWD line of feats grant a shield Bonus to AC? If so, I wouldn't bother taking it, as you should really be acquiring a wand of shield asap.

TWD grants mundane shield AC, shield wand grants EB shield AC so they stack (like if you were using a medium shield and a shield wand)

[Egg Shen]

And now I need to RCR....

[Sun Wukong]

We've all walked that road Egg Shen, we have all walked that road, even before the RCR option!