Remove Arch Mage's spell slot requirements?

[Sun Wukong]

With the hierophant PRC in... how about we toss away the Arch Mage's spell slot requirements?

Just an idea that popped up from reading the Energy Substitution thread.

[Valefort]

More like the contrary, no ?

[Hawke]

Well, I for one would like to see both the classes brought in line with one another.

Losing the spell slot requirement for Archmage is unlikely, but I would like to see hierophant have the same requirement of dedicating spell slots. As it stands right now, Hierophant is superior to the arcane counterpart PrC.

[Tsidkenu]

That's because hierophant is only supposed to progress Caster Level but not Spells per Day (the latter not being implemented in BGTSCC's version). *shrug*

[dzidek1983]

What does this change, you loose spell per day progression at lvl 20.
Add 10 hierophant levels just for CL.
Sure you take it earlier you get postponed spells per day progression but at lvl 30 you are at the same level as everybody.

Personally i hate the spell slot penalty mechanism, as per forum topics it constantly is a problem for players.

[Sun Wukong]

Honestly with 3b20 and both PRCs requiring at least 13 levels of caster (7th level spells) it's hard to conceive any odd splits or builds that might be deemed unforeseen and unintended.

When the Archmage multiclassing restrictions were lifted, I did spend a moment thinking about a Wizard 13/Assassin 8/Arcane Trickster 3/Archmage 6 just to have caster level of 29 with a hipsing sneak attack wizard, and Clap of Thunder. (5d6 Sneak attack, could be 9d6 with Manyshot) Edit: (BAB of 16)

I tend to agree it's a little silly that hierophant gets pretty much the same features that archmage without any of the penalties. With the exception of the archmage SLAs I'd on board with this.

Yeah, I agree. There is no need to remove the spell like requirement from all Arch Mage abilities. But as for Spell Power - when this PRC was initially added - almost everyone was using that "Practised Spellcaster Caster Level Bug" to get that additional +1 DC to their spells. I believe that bug has been now fixed.


Edit: I just looked up the Arch Mage description and noticed how you need 8 levels for the third and last Spell Power feat. Thus perhaps take the Mastery of Shaping or some Spell Like Ability. Or just take 4 levels and get one extra level of Arcane Trickster for +1d6 sneak attack dice and then another level of Assassin for another 1d6 sneak attack and caster level of 27 or Wizard for little higher caster level of 28. Which ever the case, BAB would be little higher.

[Nachti]

Yes. Practiced Caster bug has been fixed.

[Sun Wukong]

Another build I just thought up...

Wizard 6/Eldritch Knight 10/Frenzied Berserker 6/Archmage 8 could have BAB of 23 with caster level of 30. Now, you would have to spend a feats on: Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Martial Weapon Proficiency, Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Spell Focus (X), and Spell Focus (Y). That is seven feats in total, and you only got one Wizard Bonus feat to get one spell Focus... Thus as a human, you would have two more feats to get pre-epic. Extend Spell and Improved Power Attack?

High Arcana: Mastery of Shaping - if it works with AoE duration spells, it could be pretty neat for a strength based gish. Firewalls, Acid Fogs, etc.

But as a downside... Well, your AC is kind of sucky with no armor...

[Glowfire]

Personally i hate the spell slot penalty mechanism, as per forum topics it constantly is a problem for players.

It works great for spontaneous casters. Wizards is a random gamble each time when resting and changing spells, "Which spell will be sacrificed this time?" or if unlucky, actually a slot higher.

Subject: Arch mage - sacrificed slots but which?


It would be nice to not mess around with so many sacrificed slots, even if all can not be removed. This mess has had me reconsider having AM in my build, or at least, the intended feats I would take.

[The Whistler]

I'm all for this. AM is grossly underpowered when put side to side with BM or SA.

[mrm3ntalist]

I tend to agree it's a little silly that hierophant gets pretty much the same features that archmage without any of the penalties. With the exception of the archmage SLAs I'd on board with this.

Hierophant was the first and only PRC that promoted caster diviners contrary to meleers. That is it. There is nothing else - other than the Shadow Adept which is for both Arcane and divine. On the contrary Archmage is one of the many powerful Arcane PRCs. Whistler mentioned that AM is not as powerful as the BM or SA. I dont agree with that, but even if we consider it true, there is nothing stopping a wizard to take all three PRCs - AM, BM, SA. Thats +8CL ( for Necro, Enchantment and Illusion, 35 or 36 for the rest ) just from the bonus CLs. Can a diviner get the same bonuses? Or should we implement Diviner PRCS similar to Blood Magus, Palemaster Frost MAge etc, to satisfy that feeling of "fairness" and "equality".

Also where does the silliness stop? For example, AK/WOD do get tumble as a class skill, shall we open it for every melee class? Shall we find every unique advantage/disadvantage any given class/PRC has and use that to buff/nerf other classes/PRCs?

Only the issue with the random removal of spell slots need to be fixed - something that didnt happen in the past.

[Face]

I tend to agree it's a little silly that hierophant gets pretty much the same features that archmage without any of the penalties. With the exception of the archmage SLAs I'd on board with this.

Hierophant was the first and only PRC that promoted caster diviners contrary to meleers. That is it. There is nothing else - other than the Shadow Adept which is for both Arcane and divine. On the contrary Archmage is one of the many powerful Arcane PRCs. Whistler mentioned that AM is not as powerful as the BM or SA. I dont agree with that, but even if we consider it true, there is nothing stopping a wizard to take all three PRCs - AM, BM, SA. Thats +8CL ( for Necro, Enchantment and Illusion, 35 or 36 for the rest ) just from the bonus CLs. Can a diviner get the same bonuses? Or should we implement Diviner PRCS similar to Blood Magus, Palemaster Frost MAge etc, to satisfy that feeling of "fairness" and "equality".

Also where does the silliness stop? For example, AK/WOD do get tumble as a class skill, shall we open it for every melee class? Shall we find every unique advantage/disadvantage any given class/PRC has and use that to buff/nerf other classes/PRCs?

Only the issue with the random removal of spell slots need to be fixed - something that didnt happen in the past.

Nerf Mendel plz his aim is to good.

[Sun Wukong]

Can a diviner get the same bonuses?

Yes and actually little bit higher from just having at least eight levels of Hierophant. All you need to do is get all Spellpower feats and use the Advanced Divine Spell Power on top. You might argue that it is random, but do understand that every 6 points in charisma basically ensures you a +1 caster level. Now combine that with something like Spirit Shaman/Blackguard/Hierophant and you truly got something of a monster. Not that plain old clerics are that much behind...

Frost Mage already provides the possibility to advance divine spellcasting. Cleric/Bards/Frostmages are valid, you might even add some Stormsinger to that mix.

As for AK/WOD, well, if you kind of look at the 'melee' PRCs that have been implemented on the server - more often than not - they got that Tumble as a class skill.

Shall we find every unique advantage/disadvantage any given class/PRC has and use that to buff/nerf other classes/PRCs?

You gave Barbarians Evasion, Bonus Feats, etc... Divine Champion now has expanded feat list from what I hear - and their Divine Wrath ability was buffed up considerably. Turned from pretty much useless to something to consider... What of the Duelist deflection AC from parry? I could go on. Every unique advantage/disadvantage of any given base class/PRC has been used as an excuse to buff/nerf other base classes/PRCs.

I am just pointing out how your words and actions do not exactly line up.

Nerf Mendel plz his aim is to good.

Not quite today, I am afraid.

[mrm3ntalist]

I am just pointing out how your words and actions do not exactly line up.

I disagree. You want to buff an already powerful arcane class(AM) because of what a similar class for diviners (Hierophant) gets. Both classes are powerful. The melee classes you mentioned were behind and was asked to buff them by staff decision. There is nothing in common in your comparison.

AM already got some buffs. At first the spell slot was greater and it was reduced. There are no multiclassing restrictions any more. With your logic one can ask to remove the DC and CL penalty for SAs, since AM will get no penalties for the extra CL.

AM got enought buffs already. Its not likely - for me - to get another.

[Young Werther]

So divine casters are the best classes in the game. Par for course.