Coming Soon: Discussion Thread (2017)

[mrm3ntalist]

True

[aaron22]

the max you can have on dodge is epic rage+ITB at +8 and it will not stack and it is unchanged with the update.

edit: in fact making that a shield bonus HELPs a WW barb build taking ITB and epic rage

ITB gives natural AC. Dodge AC stacks though.

your right. my bad. got my terms all mixed up.

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=58294 has got me all discombobulated. is it noon yet? i need a drink.

[Akroma666]

I assume the con loss drop prevention will go to bear warrior too?

Any idea if this will carry over to warlock?

Like the changes, +1

[Sun Wukong]

True

Thank you. So basically, the '+2 dodge ac at level 20' got retracted for Whirlwind Frenzy Barbarians.

[mrm3ntalist]

True

Thank you. So basically, the '+2 dodge ac at level 20' got retracted for Whirlwind Frenzy Barbarians.

Yeap. At least for shield barbarians. Two handers still get the full bonuses.

You are still going to enjoy that +2AC bonus when not in rage

[Theodore01]

Whirlwind rage :
Changing the bonus AC from Dodge to Shield type.

Wait, so with that change a whirling barb. can who picks the Ice Troll Berzerker feat gets even more AC now ?
(The ice troll feat was not really useful for a whirlwind barb. so far.)

I wonder why a whirling barb. needs any ac bonus at all.
He gets an extra attack vs. a 'standard' rager gets more hitpoints and a longer duration.

Standard Rage :
Why Remove the AC penalty ? That's where Ice Troll Berzerker feat comes in.
Bonus damage 2/3/4/5 - extra damage is not needed. (I played a standard-barb up to 30 even before the other barb.changes got in.)
Regen 1 for rage and greater rage, regen 2 for mighty and epic rage - not really needed, as we have feats for that.

Add an effect to heal you if the CON loss makes you go below 0 HP. That's a great change !

[mrm3ntalist]

Whirlwind rage :
Changing the bonus AC from Dodge to Shield type.

Wait, so with that change a whirling barb. can who picks the Ice Troll Berzerker feat gets even more AC now ?
(The ice troll feat was not really useful for a whirlwind barb. so far.)

What are you talking about? That feat was and is useful for every barbarian. I think you got something wrong.

EDIT: Icetrol gives Natural AC.

[Valefort]

Whirlwind frenzy was giving dodge AC, which stacks with everything. Shield AC doesn't, it's less AC.

Ice troll berserker always gave natural AC, 2/4/6/8, it wasn't touched and remains a must pick for any build with 20+ barbarian levels.

Bonus damage and regen are there to bridge the gap compared to whirlwind frenzy, which gives a bonus attack at top AB and more AC than normal Rage, idea of normal rage is that you'll take hits but regen and DR will cover that minor nuisance (instead of high AC and DR for whirlwind frenzy).

[Theodore01]

ohh yeah, got me

[Theodore01]

Bonus damage and regen are there to bridge the gap compared to whirlwind frenzy, which gives a bonus attack at top AB and more AC than normal Rage, idea of normal rage is that you'll take hits but regen and DR will cover that minor nuisance (instead of high AC and DR for whirlwind frenzy).

Yeah, but why not just remove the bonus AC from whirlwind then. With the latest barb. changes it is a good class overall.

[Sun Wukong]

Standard Rage :
Remove the AC penalty.
Add an effect to heal you if the CON loss makes you go below 0 HP.
Bonus damage 2/3/4/5
Regen 1 for rage and greater rage, regen 2 for mighty and epic rage

I have nothing against an effect that heals if you 'CON loss at the end of rage' makes you go below 0 HP.

But the removal of the -2 AC penalty, adding +5 damage per hit, and +2 Regeneration on top of possible Fast Healing and Regeneration Cloak is just too much. You are basically buffing up the Standard Rage to a point where it becomes the superior choice and that is even if the bonus damage does not multiply on a critical hit.

So, how about you drop the removal of the AC penalty? You know, there should be some penalty for using Rage. Whirlwind Frenzy comes with -2 AB, and I think the Standard Rage should retain the AC penalty. It is basically negated at level 20 already.

[Valefort]

That would have been quite the nerf ! No one would pick Whirlwind Frenzy if that were the case.

[Calodan]

That would have been quite the nerf ! No one would pick Whirlwind Frenzy if that were the case.

I love how the reaction is to nerf even more.......SMH at this point.

Was a good move by staff. There was little reason to take a standard rage Barb since FB granted way more power and Whirlwind was so much better. This now gives three solid choices of rage fighters on the server all with unique style and weaknesses. GOOD WORK! FLAT OUT! FILE IT AWAY AND MOVE ON!! *NOD NOD*

[Sun Wukong]

So, how about you drop the removal of the AC penalty? You know, there should be some penalty for using Rage. Whirlwind Frenzy comes with -2 AB, and I think the Standard Rage should retain the AC penalty. It is basically negated at level 20 already.

I mean, think about it, if the AC penalty from Standard Rage is removed and you make use of a heavy shield, then the whirlwind frenzy only gives +3 points of AC over the Standard Rage variant.

With Standard Rage you can acquire the extra Haste attack without suffering -2 penalty to AB with Bracers of Blinding Speed that you can stock up in your inventory. It is just 3 points of AC, when you could have increased Hitpoints, +5 Damage, +2 Regeneration, much higher will saves and longer rage duration, and +2 AB from simply not having the Whirlwind Frenzy AB penalty.

What reason would anyone have to use Whilrwind Frenzy? The more I think about it, the builds I could do with this suggested new Standard Rage, are just far superior. The AC penalty should remain, and the extra damage frankly is unneeded, if you must have it, make it +1 and +2 like the regeneration.

[matelener]

So, how about you drop the removal of the AC penalty? You know, there should be some penalty for using Rage. Whirlwind Frenzy comes with -2 AB, and I think the Standard Rage should retain the AC penalty. It is basically negated at level 20 already.

I mean, think about it, if the AC penalty from Standard Rage is removed and you make use of a heavy shield, then the whirlwind frenzy only gives +3 points of AC over the Standard Rage variant.

With Standard Rage you can acquire the extra Haste attack without suffering -2 penalty to AB with Bracers of Blinding Speed that you can stock up in your inventory. It is just 3 points of AC, when you could have increased Hitpoints, +5 Damage, +2 Regeneration, much higher will saves and longer rage duration, and +2 AB from simply not having the Whirlwind Frenzy AB penalty.

What reason would anyone have to use Whilrwind Frenzy? The more I think about it, the builds I could do with this suggested new Standard Rage, are just far superior. The AC penalty should remain, and the extra damage frankly is unneeded, if you must have it, make it +1 and +2 like the regeneration.

Extra attack from WW rage stacks with an atttack from Haste and in terms of damage dealing it shouldn't be underestimated.

+5 dmg per hit for a 30 lvl barbarian is 30 dmg a round if you somehow hit all 6 attacks (which almost never happens)

An extra attack could easily be 40 dmg a round and it's almost guaranteed.

Defensively, there's now a difference of 5 AC between rages which in terms of effective HP is a lot. Few things to note:

- HP synergizes with DR and AC, WW barbarian can get all 3 of those stats high and at the same time dish out dmg. Standard Rage barbs usually lack AC, they can wear shields but they're gonna lose a big chunk of damage while doing so (from STR and IPA).

- 120-150 HP sounds like a lot (3 or 4 epic toughnesses) but it's a bonus on top of an already huge HP pools of barbarians. A jump from 600 HP to 750 HP isn't close to the impact of 5 AC.

- Standard Rage provides significant bonuses to Fort and Will (scaled even further by Steadfast) but, similarly to HP, WW barbs can already get great saves. Additionally, saves can easily be covered by gear and multiclassing (unlike AC).