Mornling lord of Lathander

[Steve]

What other PrC is like this?!

Favored soul.........Frenzy Beserker...Warlock......Divine Champion......So many Steve. So very many.

Maybe it is time to stop hating bro?

Listen bro...how about reading what I write! I wrote PrC, and you list 2 Base Classes....

Hierophant requires 15 Lore Skills—relevant to being a "prestige" class. As well, just 1 metamagic feat, and almost all casters take Extend Spell.

But even if you read the PrC description: "Hierophants are higher members of clergy and druidic circles who decide to temporarily forgo gaining the highest levels of divine magic in order to concentrate on the mastery of what they already possess."

What does a Hierophant actually forgo here?!?

I'll answer that for you: nothing. Would it make any damn sense to take 10 more Cleric levels over 10 Hierophant levels?

Compare Hierophant to Arch Mage. See the difference? Yeah, LOTS OF DIFFERENCE.

And...does anyone have a Canon Lore source that says Hierophant progresses Turning? I can't find one.

Obviously, Hierophant was designed and tested and promoted by Karond...the preeminent power builder of BGTSCC!!!

You guys make me laugh.

[Valefort]

They could be made to give 1/10 or even no spell progression at all, while still raising CL.

[dedude]

You guys make me laugh.

Ahh, then it's not all bad. Glad we aren't making you mad bud!

[mrm3ntalist]

Obviously, Hierophant was designed and tested and promoted by Karond...the preeminent power builder of BGTSCC!!!

This comment is not only unfair, but there is nothing you can base it on. Just imagination and speculation.

As far as the comparison with AM, one that you favor doing the answer will always be the same. They are so different that no comparison makes sense.

If you want something specific nerfed about the Hierophant, you can suggest it in the appropriate part of the forums. Making this personal and accuse others, wont go well about any of us nor will it lead somewhere other than maybe ahving the thread locked.

[Steve]

Obviously, Hierophant was designed and tested and promoted by Karond...the preeminent power builder of BGTSCC!!!

This comment is not only unfair, but there is nothing you can base it on. Just imagination and speculation.

Bottom of the Hierophant Wiki page, mate. Take a look.

But come on...Karond is well aware of how much I poke him for his Building choices.

[mrm3ntalist]

Obviously, Hierophant was designed and tested and promoted by Karond...the preeminent power builder of BGTSCC!!!

This comment is not only unfair, but there is nothing you can base it on. Just imagination and speculation.

Bottom of the Hierophant Wiki page, mate. Take a look.

I know, i seen it. On the wiki it is used as a token of appreciation for the work Karond did. You twist that as if he did something intentionally wrong. Hence the unfair part

But come on...Karond is well aware of how much I poke him for his Building choices.

I can believe that No surprises there.

[Steve]

Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but Arcane Casters have Arch Mage, Divine Casters have Hierophant. Compare the requirements, compare the "negatives." The PrCs wildly differ!!

Maybe I should say: why are you NOT comparing them, or worse, just refusing to? Even Shadow Adept and Blood Mage have negatives...so we can compare those as well, if you want.

And I'm not here to suggest a nerf, though I am surprised and dismayed that Hierophant progresses Turning, as well, that no where it seems to be documented.

What I am doing is showing exactly what Hierophant is! A powerhouse PrC that no Cleric / SS caster should pass up!!

[Steve]

They could be made to give 1/10 or even no spell progression at all, while still raising CL.

This is what the Hierophant seems to imply. But I need to check the DMG later, to see what the text says there. There are other sources to search through, as well.

[chad878262]

What I am doing is showing exactly what Hierophant is! A powerhouse PrC that no Cleric / SS caster should pass up!!

Yet they still do... The PRC is fantastic, no doubt. However, I would say many of the Archmage abilities quite simply outmatch Hierophant in any case. Caster Clerics are solid, as are Caster Druids and Spirit Shamans. They are not better than Wizard/Sorcerers, with or without this PRC. It is a strong PRC for certain builds that can reward players who build around what it does well. Most take it to hit CL30 with their Sacred Fist builds though. In any case, not really sure what the issue is? Turning Clerics are not exactly something that many players build, so encouraging building one through Hierophant is a good thing IMO. Frankly it's always been annoying to me that Morning Lord didn't make for a better turning cleric than pure cleric does.

[mrm3ntalist]

Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but Arcane Casters have Arch Mage, Divine Casters have Hierophant. Compare the requirements, compare the "negatives." The PrCs wildly differ!!

Maybe I should say: why are you NOT comparing them, or worse, just refusing to? Even Shadow Adept and Blood Mage have negatives...so we can compare those as well, if you want.

And I'm not here to suggest a nerf, though I am surprised and dismayed that Hierophant progresses Turning, as well, that no where it seems to be documented.

What I am doing is showing exactly what Hierophant is! A powerhouse PrC that no Cleric / SS caster should pass up!!

You are not wrong. But you are not seeing the whole picture. Before Hierophant many times concerns were expressed that mechanically DC Divine casters didnt get as much as arcane ones did. That includes PRCs, Feats, spells etc. There was no PRC that benefit DC diviners the way Arcane ones did.

The Hierophant PRC changed that and put DC clerics back on the map. Care was taken to avoid powerbuilds like no multiclassing with FS. Now instead of comparing diviners with arcane casters who not only are different but the latter get a ton of PRCs and feats and basically can do everything just let us know what is so OP with this PRC. OP as in it breaks things.

[Blackman D]

Frankly it's always been annoying to me that Morning Lord didn't make for a better turning cleric than pure cleric does.

aside from the severe downside of having to be LG which is why i deleted mine, you get damn near all of the turning feats for free, not sure how thats not better

[chad878262]

aside from the severe downside of having to be LG which is why i deleted mine, you get damn near all of the turning feats for free, not sure how thats not better

It costs two feats to qualify for ML and Improved Turning is the only feat you get that improves your ability to turn undead. Extra Turning is great and all, but it's actually more useful for an EDM build than a true turning cleric. Meanwhile, Cleric gets 3 bonus epic feats which can further increase CHA if they don't take Morning Lord. Therefore a pure Cleric might have fewer uses of Turn Undead, but they will be better at it. (if marginally so.)

IMO ML should have some custom ability to give it some leg up on Turning Undead, but Hierophant has done that so the point is moot.

[Blackman D]

if you are only ever dealing with normal undead then sure i suppose so, however when turning doesnt work you do have other divine feats that trade a turn for straight damage to use, so having a lot of turns helps; DM and EDM are nice i guess but they are not needed unless you are dealing with something that isnt undead

and improved turning is really nothing compared to empowered turning; +1 level is very insignificant next to 20+ damage when it comes to a turn check

[Calodan]

It was always my understanding that a DC Cleric/FvS or Arcanist throwing Sunbeams/Sunbursts will always be superior in killing undead in masses than any turner.

[Sun Wukong]

Well, not years ago... I remeber one dedicated Turn Undead cleric just rounding mobs of mid-high level undeads to just blast them off with Turn Undead. Didn't need those spells.