Favored power attack and enhanced power attack

[blacksoft]

This was probably asked already.

How does favored power attack and enhanced power attack interact?

Before I get through level 10 and lose my ability to relevel for free, I would like to know damage increase I get for going ranger for favored power attack over going 12 levels fighter. (I don't care about free ranger weapon style feats, spells, or companion. I do use ranger for swift tracker, skills, and favored power attacks for three FE)

It is my current understanding that (as I use a weapon in two hands) that PA is base 6 and with enhanced PA is base 10. Which means that without EPA I get 6*3_18 damage per hit,. And with EPA it's 10*3_30 damage per hit.

The thing is I am not getting the 18 damage per hit on vanilla PA when used against ogres(giant FE).

What am I missing here? Is FPA really not all that good - even damage wise. (I understand it's limiting in terms of whom I face as its specialized damage)

Thanks

[blacksoft]

http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Favored_Power_Attack
table at the end.

Thank you. The values are not high enough for it to make sense not to go fighter over Ranger for what I am looking for. How unfortunate.

[dzidek1983]

i think that it works great for a specialised character... fex. a dwarf giant slayer.. you get +4 AC vs giants and a build like fighter 12 / ranger 3 / FB5 / AK 10 or a human dragonslayer fighter 12 / ranger 3 / FB5 / dragnoslayer 10

[Vermilion]

A ranger/frenzied berserker would also be very Minsc, and that counts for a lot.

[blacksoft]

i think that it works great for a specialised character... fex. a dwarf giant slayer.. you get +4 AC vs giants and a build like fighter 12 / ranger 3 / FB5 / AK 10 or a human dragonslayer fighter 12 / ranger 3 / FB5 / dragnoslayer 10

I see what you mean by specialized, in those examples you do only go 3 ranger for one FE and already have fighter 12.

I was considering Ranger 10 for three FE and since I was not already fighter, the level split only made sense to go 12 fighter instead of all those ranger levels as it's better ab, more hp, more feats and only damage differential of 4 under IPA. Taking track feat and able learner offsets what I wanted from ranger since its a swashbuckler intelligence build. I just wanted to try to go away from the 12 fighter platform, but it seems that it truly is too good to give up for a basic melee build.

[blacksoft]

A ranger/frenzied berserker would also be very Minsc, and that counts for a lot.

I hear you, assuming you are getting all this other things from a Ranger by going 21+

[chad878262]

i think that it works great for a specialised character... fex. a dwarf giant slayer.. you get +4 AC vs giants and a build like fighter 12 / ranger 3 / FB5 / AK 10 or a human dragonslayer fighter 12 / ranger 3 / FB5 / dragnoslayer 10

I see what you mean by specialized, in those examples you do only go 3 ranger for one FE and already have fighter 12.

I was considering Ranger 10 for three FE and since I was not already fighter, the level split only made sense to go 12 fighter instead of all those ranger levels as it's better ab, more hp, more feats and only damage differential of 4 under IPA. Taking track feat and able learner offsets what I wanted from ranger since its a swashbuckler intelligence build. I just wanted to try to go away from the 12 fighter platform, but it seems that it truly is too good to give up for a basic melee build.

Well you could always go F12/R10/FB5/X3 in order to still have swift tracker and 3 FE's. The 3 could be any slew of useful classes/PRC's depending on your RP and desired build. Rogue would come with a potentially significant XP penalty, but Whirling Dervish as a PRC could be useful. Other options to look at might be DragonSlayer, Tempest, Anointed Knight/Warrior of Darkness, Blackguard, or my favorite for a 3 level dip - Bodyguard (Neverwinter Nine).

[blacksoft]

Well you could always go F12/R10/FB5/X3 in order to still have swift tracker and 3 FE's. The 3 could be any slew of useful classes/PRC's depending on your RP and desired build. Rogue would come with a potentially significant XP penalty, but Whirling Dervish as a PRC could be useful. Other options to look at might be DragonSlayer, Tempest, Anointed Knight/Warrior of Darkness, Blackguard, or my favorite for a 3 level dip - Bodyguard (Neverwinter Nine).

True.

I am trying to keep swashbuckler on the table so I can have high dex and high int for skills. Going halfling, I get 2.5 int to damage. (Although I wonder, taking into account better weapons other than short sword whether the damage truly is any better with the 2.5 modifier to intelligence.)

I am thinking of F12/SB10/FB5/SD3. If not for the ab increase from Fighter as well as ability to take multiple epic ability feats, I would consider SB15/Duelist 7/FB5/SD3 since I do really want good ac.

(The 10 extra damage from FE are just not as compelling as what I thought to be 40 extra damage per IPA hit for me to invest in Ranger's FE's. I am okay leaving Ranger behind. I had also thought that Swashbucklers int to damage was 1.5 with two-handers as well in addition to combat insight, so the damage I was initially envisioning is just not there .

[chad878262]

SB 10 gets you nothing and HiPS is not strictly necessary. Also, finesse weapons won't work with Power Attack (except in a very specific circumstance of a Gnome/Halfling with a Shortsword). So if you want to go with a Rapier or something than you can go F12/SB5/D7/X6 (where 6 could be getting to SB11 for free Luck of Hero's, taking Duelist to 10 and taking 3 levels of Shadow Dancer or Whirling Dervish or whatever else you want...)

Frankly I think you are BETTER OFF going strength based if you want to use power attack/IPA/EPA. If you want to drop Ranger, and depending on the RP you could look in to the Cavalier Paladin Kit. Get's FE's, shield feats and Extra Smiting/Great Smiting in exchange for losing Lay on Hands, Turn Undead (No EDM) and Remove Disease. So a bit less Cleric, more Fighter if you want to think of it that way.

If Paladin is not your thing then as I said, F12/R10/FB5/X3 gets everything you want. 10 levels of Ranger gets you a decent amount of extra skill points and alternating the Ranger levels throughout the build will help you avoid Able Learner or paying for skills at 2-for-1. Going this route has the added bonus of allowing you to go INT ~14, DEX ~14 and max STR which allows for better carrying capacity.

In any case if you want a finesse build focusing on INT and DEX I would not recommend also going after Power Attack unless you are a gnome or halfling, even then it is cheesy since RAW in D&D you cannot power attack with weapon finesse, it is just a bug in the engine. You could still go STR/DEX/INT split if you wanted by taking SB5 since Insightful Strike adds INT to damage on any light/finesse weapon in addition to STR. However, that is not ideal IMO.

[blacksoft]

SB 10 gets you nothing and HiPS is not strictly necessary.

Swashbuckler 10 gets me mobility, another ac point, no xp penalty. Going for swashbuckler, for insightful strike forces me to go deeper into swash if I want to use another base class other than rogue (bard). (I would pick up luck of heroes at first level). Shadow dancer also gives me evasion and uncanny dodge and hide and move silently skills.

EDIT: also, HIPS allows me to have all my ability level-ups be in intelligence since fighter bab bonus feats can keep me at 42 ab.

Also, finesse weapons won't work with Power Attack (except in a very specific circumstance of a Gnome/Halfling with a Shortsword).

But I am going as a Halfling

Frankly I think you are BETTER OFF going strength based if you want to use power attack/IPA/EPA.

Why? As a Swashbuckler Halfling I can get 2.5 int to damage and have good skills.

If you want to drop Ranger, and depending on the RP you could look in to the Cavalier Paladin Kit. Get's FE's, shield feats and Extra Smiting/Great Smiting in exchange for losing Lay on Hands, Turn Undead (No EDM) and Remove Disease. So a bit less Cleric, more Fighter if you want to think of it that way.

An interesting proposition that I had considered, but I am dumping charisma, so ranger is always the better option for FE.

If Paladin is not your thing then as I said, F12/R10/FB5/X3 gets everything you want. 10 levels of Ranger gets you a decent amount of extra skill points and alternating the Ranger levels throughout the build will help you avoid Able Learner or paying for skills at 2-for-1. Going this route has the added bonus of allowing you to go INT ~14, DEX ~14 and max STR which allows for better carrying capacity.

This is definitely an alternative. Bodyguard is a good idea. Thematically, it would be a very different build than using a small race with swashbuckler. I have to think more on this.

EDIT: I see no good way to level this as you will have to take FB 5, R10 or F 12 as the last epic level, whereas neither of these is preferred. There is no epic feat available at level 30, so lose out on main benefit going Fighter 12 or Ranger 10. Delaying FB enhanced PA till end seems kind of pointless...

In any case if you want a finesse build focusing on INT and DEX I would not recommend also going after Power Attack unless you are a gnome or halfling, even then it is cheesy since RAW in D&D you cannot power attack with weapon finesse, it is just a bug in the engine. You could still go STR/DEX/INT split if you wanted by taking SB5 since Insightful Strike adds INT to damage on any light/finesse weapon in addition to STR. However, that is not ideal IMO.

I personally do not find it cheesy for the gnome/Halfling, it is a "bigger" weapon. So that part of things does not bother me.

[Valefort]

Well it is a bug though and might be fixed one day.

[blacksoft]

Well it is a bug though and might be fixed one day.

............................. oh

[Valefort]

Hey it's not like the difference is huge in terms of damage and it is hardly a priority

However you're warned, that's building on sand.

[blacksoft]

Hey it's not like the difference is huge in terms of damage and it is hardly a priority

However you're warned, that's building on sand.

Were not the pyramids built on sand and they are around still to this day

[chad878262]

Swashbuckler 10 gets me mobility, another ac point, no xp penalty. Going for swashbuckler, for insightful strike forces me to go deeper into swash if I want to use another base class other than rogue (bard). (I would pick up luck of heroes at first level). Shadow dancer also gives me evasion and uncanny dodge and hide and move silently skills.

Mobility comes at 7. The extra point of AC only works against 1 enemy, so the use is pretty limited. Extra Fighter levels can get you the feats you need. However, the XP penalty is certainly a good reason to have SB levels closer to fighter. FYI, if you are after evasion, hide/move silently you could also go Whirling Dervish which doesn't require 19 DEX (but doesn't give HiPS). Those 3 free skill focus feats are pretty nice! However, Uncanny Dodge would be missing.

But I am going as a Halfling

Fair enough, but...

RAW in D&D you cannot power attack with weapon finesse, it is just a bug in the engine.

Well it is a bug though and might be fixed one day.

People said for many years that the dispel bug wouldn't get fixed and then all of a sudden it did. So if you are going to build based off of a bug in the engine, be aware that you may or may not get a full RCR when said bug is fixed.

Why? As a Swashbuckler Halfling I can get 2.5 int to damage and have good skills.

Initial post did not say you were a halfling, many of the bits within my response were made in general as your race was not stated in the first post. In any case, see above as to gaining damage from Power Attacking with a finesse weapon.

This is definitely an alternative. Bodyguard is a good idea. Thematically, it would be a very different build than using a small race with swashbuckler. I have to think more on this.

EDIT: I see no good way to level this as you will have to take FB 5, R10 or F 12 as the last epic level, whereas neither of these is preferred. There is no epic feat available at level 30, so lose out on main benefit going Fighter 12 or Ranger 10. Delaying FB enhanced PA till end seems kind of pointless...

You'd level the same way you would in your F12/SB10 example. I would say you go Ranger at 1 (skills) Then Fighter 2 (feats), Ranger 2 levels, making you R3/F3 at level 6. from there I would make the attempt to keep Fighter/Ranger levels in line and would leave FB5 for 30th level to ensure I could get Epic Weapon Specialization and Melee Mastery. Would still require an XP penalty for the last 3 or 4 levels, but if that is what you are wanting to build, some sacrifices have to be made...

I personally do not find it cheesy for the gnome/Halfling, it is a "bigger" weapon. So that part of things does not bother me.

It's cheesy because that Short Sword is a Long Sword to the gnome/halfling and, thus it should not be a finesse weapon. In PnP that Short Sword would be useable with Power Attack for your halfling, but would not be usable with Weapon Finesse. I'm not saying your build is cheesy or your RP idea... I am talking about the fact that a 'finesse' weapon by it's nature is not something you put extra power behind, sacrificing accuracy. A halfling wielding a Shortsword is the equivalent of a Human with a Longsword so if you want to PA that's fine, but weapon finesse isn't supposed to be an option. The fact that the Shortsword is the only weapon this works with should be an indicator that it was an oversight. That said, use it as you will since no rule says you can't. Just read Valefort's post and be aware that it could be fixed in the future.