Valid skills to use for Bards

[Vartigy]

So I'm kind of curious what everyone thinks about decent MUST HAVE feats for Bards.

But also skills to put points into.

Build is an all rounder bard, spell buffer, melee rapier wielder, listen skill, perform a bit etc.

Spell Casting Prodigy (To get bonus spell slots) worth while?
Or more value in picking Toughness/Steadfast combo?

Northlander sounds awesome.

Song Feats?
Song of Heart,
Lingering
Curse
Then the epics? Heroism and Requiem?

Tossing points into:
Appraise, Concentration(is it worthwhile or AC that high it won't matter?), Listen, Perform, UMD, Bluff, Lore, SpCrft, Tumble.

Anything else i'm missing?

[dzidek1983]

Feat:
Curse Song, Lingering Song are a must have
For the lvl 1 feat i would take Luck of Heroes
For the rest i would consider extend spell, weapon focus, toughness.

Skills:
Listen, Tuble, Spellcraft, Concentration, Perform, Use magic Device - max those
1 point in each Lore skill
diplomacy/bluff/intimidate - pick one and max it
if you can afford to then max Spot
put 1 point in open lock, search and disable device (if you have rogue levels you can invest more)

Northlander is good for STR characters... with Rapier you wont Power Attack so the NH bonus seems even more valuable...

in the epics take both requiem feats and the hymn of requiem... take epic prowess, if you have rogue levels take expose weakness (seriously i dont see why you shouldnt take rogue levels, a 3 lvl dip is that good, skills, evasion - expose weakness, SA, can take blinding strike)

we dont have song of heart on this server...

Concentration is important... they will eventually hit you and casting inside battle always provokes attacks of oppurtunity...

[chad878262]

Spot isn't a class skill so max you'll get is 16 for 32 Skill points unless you take able learner and dip a class that gets spot.

Since you are using a rapier, I assume you are going DEX / INT, in which case you need Weapon Finesse for your Attack Bonus and taking Combat Expertise will allow you to take Epic Prowess and Combat Insight to get INT to damage in epics, not that Bards struggle for damage...

Pre-Epic I would take LoH, Weapon Finesse, Curse Song, Lingering Song, Extend Spell, Practiced Spell Caster (if you take 3-4 levels in another class such as Rogue to open up Evasion/Expose Weakness and Spot for example) and Combat Expertise (that's 7, human gets one more). Weapon Focus is an option, but you have Greater Heroism and Inspire Courage for +9 to your AB anyway. You also have short term spells such as Haste and Warcry when needed. If Human and going 'pure' bard so you don't need Practiced Spell Caster I would take Toughness and Steadfast because you can get your saves up to pretty high numbers and failing on a 1 sucks...plus Valefort recommends Steadfast Determination! Another option if you decide to max Bluff is to drop Luck of Heroes and take Feint, but again, your AB is really not needing any help. However, if you dip Rogue, that will be a fairly decent way to land your 2d6 bonus sneak damage so losing 1 AC and 1 to saves may be worth it (+ ~7 damage except against crit immunes.)

In epics I would go Epic Prowess, Combat Insight, Chorus of Heroism, Song of Requiem and Hymn of Requiem. If you take Rogue then I would also grab Expose Weakness. Any other feats can go to Great INT or Great DEX, but end on an even number since you can cast Fox's Cunning and Nixie's Grace to get +4 INT, DEX, WIS and CHA...(WIS is kind of your dump stat, but CHA 16 w/ Nixie's gives 20, 18 DEX gives 22 (perfect for Mithral chain shirt) and then INT can be 22-26, depending on race and how much STR/CON/WIS you want.

[dzidek1983]

it is if he gets rogue...

[Vartigy]

Ability Point rollout suggestions?

14/21 (1 epic str)
10/10
11/11
14/14
10/10
17/18

or

16/24
10/10
10/10
14/14
10/10
16/16

Is there any real benefit to having a +4 CHA to a +3 CHA mod?
There are a couple CHA skills which i'll use heavily, but unsure whether getting a +1 on their roll would be worth it, in comparison to having +2 over on STR.
Sure theres extra few spell slots... buuuttt... ?

[dzidek1983]

thats a bad layout

i would start if you want to go NH STR version

16/14/12/14/8/14 - on a human

You will be using light armor so need a modifed dex of 18 to take full use of the armor pieces
unless you go for medium armor you can go lower dex

14 CHA is enough, you are a fighter type, but a +2 CHA item and youll be alright

14 INT for skills and Imroved Knockdown or Combat expertise if you like to take those

Wisdom is a dump stat

take 12 CON and use a +2 CON item and take toughness feat

STR is obvious - AB and Dmg

[TarnishedSoul]

BG doesn't have Song of the Heart - just FYI!

[Vartigy]

thats a bad layout

i would start if you want to go NH STR version

16/14/12/14/8/14 - on a human

You will be using light armor so need a modifed dex of 18 to take full use of the armor pieces
unless you go for medium armor you can go lower dex

14 CHA is enough, you are a fighter type, but a +2 CHA item and youll be alright

14 INT for skills and Imroved Knockdown or Combat expertise if you like to take those

Wisdom is a dump stat

take 12 CON and use a +2 CON item and take toughness feat

STR is obvious - AB and Dmg

interesting, cheers for the feedback. why not 16CHA or start 14 and add 2 to 16, to get 6th tier spells. just running eyes over them, not many good ones if a selfish PC. but energy immunity looks very handy at 6th tier.

BG doesn't have Song of the Heart - just FYI!

Thanks

it is if he gets rogue...

No rogue.
thinking MoDisguises. 5lvls.


so how good is this NH bonus, especially if two-handed wielding... bastard or great sword?
can you manually make your character (med) twohand wield a one hand (long sword or rapier etc?)

[chad878262]

interesting, cheers for the feedback. why not 16CHA or start 14 and add 2 to 16, to get 6th tier spells. just running eyes over them, not many good ones if a selfish PC. but energy immunity looks very handy at 6th tier.

You absolutely want 5th and 6th tier spells. Greater Heroism, Energy Immunity and Nixie's Grace are all must have. However, you can have 14 CHA and wear a ring or other piece of equipment with +2 CHA to allow you to cast level 5 and 6 spells, and when you cast Nixie's Grace your CHA will be 18. It won't give you more spells, but will make you have +4 to any songs or spells with a DC (though your DC won't be high enough to really be useful unless you max CHA and then you are no longer really a fighter type.

so how good is this NH bonus, especially if two-handed wielding... bastard or great sword?
can you manually make your character (med) twohand wield a one hand (long sword or rapier etc?)

You can't two hand a rapier as it is a finesse weapon. If you have a long sword with nothing in the off hand (or any non-finesse weapon) you automatically are considered to be using it with two hands. As for Northlander Hewing, I hate that idea for a Bard... You get damage per hit and can get a really good Attack Bonus to land a good number of hits. My STR Bard has 30 STR and uses IPA and still hits on the majority of attacks. In addition you get +5 damage from Inspire Courage, +2 damage from Warcry, +1-4 damage from Sonic Weapon and I feel like I am forgetting something else... Point is reducing your # attacks from 6 (with haste) down to 3 doesn't seem worth it, even for the decent bonuses from NH. It is good for a wizard gish that doesn't have as many sources of adding damage, but for a Strength Bard I would not take it.

[Vartigy]

interesting, cheers for the feedback. why not 16CHA or start 14 and add 2 to 16, to get 6th tier spells. just running eyes over them, not many good ones if a selfish PC. but energy immunity looks very handy at 6th tier.

You absolutely want 5th and 6th tier spells. Greater Heroism, Energy Immunity and Nixie's Grace are all must have. However, you can have 14 CHA and wear a ring or other piece of equipment with +2 CHA to allow you to cast level 5 and 6 spells, and when you cast Nixie's Grace your CHA will be 18. It won't give you more spells, but will make you have +4 to any songs or spells with a DC (though your DC won't be high enough to really be useful unless you max CHA and then you are no longer really a fighter type.

so how good is this NH bonus, especially if two-handed wielding... bastard or great sword?
can you manually make your character (med) twohand wield a one hand (long sword or rapier etc?)

You can't two hand a rapier as it is a finesse weapon. If you have a long sword with nothing in the off hand (or any non-finesse weapon) you automatically are considered to be using it with two hands. As for Northlander Hewing, I hate that idea for a Bard... You get damage per hit and can get a really good Attack Bonus to land a good number of hits. My STR Bard has 30 STR and uses IPA and still hits on the majority of attacks. In addition you get +5 damage from Inspire Courage, +2 damage from Warcry, +1-4 damage from Sonic Weapon and I feel like I am forgetting something else... Point is reducing your # attacks from 6 (with haste) down to 3 doesn't seem worth it, even for the decent bonuses from NH. It is good for a wizard gish that doesn't have as many sources of adding damage, but for a Strength Bard I would not take it.

So... if you only have 14 CHA, and it comes time to level up 13/14 where Tier 5 spells become available. Can you still choose spells for the book, even though you don't have 15 CHA? And so on same question for 16 CHA, tier 6?
I understand the item based bonus Ability but am thoroughly shocked and surprised that you can level up, pick the spells for the spellbook, but not actually have any "spell slots" available because of lower stat?
Am i understanding that correctly?
Awesome if so! Incredible mechanic, but shockingly unexpected.

And on the NH opinion. Thankyou, its good to hear all sides on these ideas. You do raise a good point.
Plus, Bastard/GS, need a weap prof feat not auto granted to the classes chosen.

[dzidek1983]

You will be able to pick spells, but if you dont wear the item you wont be able to cast them.

[Vartigy]

awesome, thanks for that. i had no idea of that mechanic. very handy.