Would u still play on BGTSCC if yr Toon had only "X" Lives?

For Issues, Ideas, or Subjects That Do Not Fit Elsewhere

Moderators: Moderator, DM

User avatar
Steve
Recognized Donor
Posts: 8132
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2015 5:42 am
Location: Paradise in GMT +1

Re: Would u still play on BGTSCC if yr Toon had only "X" Liv

Unread post by Steve »

Planehopper wrote:So if you desire to drive real change, perhaps starting a move toward the middle would be wise? What would that look like to each of you?
So far, I have asked to be considered (and not just in this thread):

1. Permastrikes to be valid tools in Role-play (again).
2. More DCs used in DM events.
3. Direct involvement in Conflict RP.
4. Implementing more Campaign-like stories, for dedicated PCs/Players (to that Campaign).

It seems simply impossible to not only ask for, but create, pockets of more consequential and challenging role-play, using both mechanics and storytelling to create energy in the Game.

If I was only offered X lives per Character, on BGTSCC, I'd make the most of it, and make the role-play count toward a memorable experience, not just for me, but of my fellow players and for the DMs. Try me out. I've been waiting years for something to come along....

Thanks for participating in this thread. My opinion has been stated, and that's about as much traction as expected. Cheers.

PS—if there is someone with the smarts and tools to come up with a solution for BGTSCC, more power to you! I'm right there waiting to experiment with it.

Talsorian the Conjuransmuter - The (someTIMEs) Traveler

The half-MAN, the MYrchanT(H), the LEGENDermaine ~ Jon Smythe [Bio]

Brinn Essebrenanath — Volamtar, seeking wisdom within the earth dream [Bio]
User avatar
Rhifox
Custom Content
Posts: 3964
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2016 2:34 am

Re: Would u still play on BGTSCC if yr Toon had only "X" Liv

Unread post by Rhifox »

Planehopper wrote:So if you desire to drive real change, perhaps starting a move toward the middle would be wise? What would that look like to each of you?
Make greater use of the 3-strike system that already exists.

Make PvP deaths adhere to the PvE ruleset and send you to the Fugue/leave a corpse that must be resurrected via existing mechanics instead of just being RPed. Requires also adding a subdual mode that can be activated to enable non-fatal pvp where desired. This has the effect of at least making isolated pvp encounters away from witnesses a potential risk within existing mechanics (if not metagamed...).

Let experience loss reduce levels (so hitting level 30 doesn't make you suddenly immune to the mechanical consequences that are already in place).


Doesn't go as far as I'd like, but if we're talking about a middle ground then that'd be a good start I think. Suggestions are focused on refining existing systems to make loss slightly more painful in areas where consequences are currently lacking.
Tarina — The Witch of Darkhold, a dealer in spirits and black magic
User avatar
K'yon Oblodra
Recognized Donor
Posts: 1009
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:38 am
Location: Berlin

Re: Would u still play on BGTSCC if yr Toon had only "X" Liv

Unread post by K'yon Oblodra »

Kinda fear this would cause a lot of trouble, the xp loss thing would leave a bad taste after each pvp, which seems to be an issue already without the consequences.
K'yon Oblodra
Necromancer of the school of Necromancy
Silent seat for the school of Necromancy
User avatar
Young Werther
Posts: 863
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2013 8:42 pm
Location: Azkaban

Re: Would u still play on BGTSCC if yr Toon had only "X" Liv

Unread post by Young Werther »

dedude wrote:Any system that isn't enforced mechanically, or is "open to interpretation", isn't a system at all. Every time someone says that everyone should be allowed to play the game as they like, I cringe a little, cause I'm the type of player that prefer defined boundaries. But I know that is the official position of the server, so it is what it is.
Perhaps I should have used the term "honor system" but that's hyper inflating what we've come to expect.

Image
Lockonnow wrote:greatest fear like the movie Hellraiser they show you what you most fear and take a Image of IT
User avatar
Hoihe
Posts: 4721
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 2:25 pm

Re: Would u still play on BGTSCC if yr Toon had only "X" Liv

Unread post by Hoihe »

To start on a.... new tangent.

There are a few places on the server where I would agree with much greater consequences for failure than normal

These areas would be:
  • Hell -
    Dying in Hell, or even getting captured has special lore attached. Getting captured may lead to being thrown into River Styx, which I'd very much not have enforced unless a player wants to do it for story purposes.

    Consequences could be requiring a DM interaction so that the player must bargain with a devil to be allowed to leave, with a system of strikes increasing the difficulties of providing enough. Losing soul should not be enforced, but losing half your levels after dying many times? Or even starting from level 1 - sure. The level loss could be standard, alongside an option for gold/gear loss. A player could also try to bargain away other things, maybe even bargain for others.

    Perhaps you could bribe a devil ahead of time with gold worth around 200k+ to "rescue you" if you die, allowing you to feel safe in exchange for possible waste of gold.

    Raise Dead, unless that devil is bribed, doesn't work.
  • Illithid Hive-
    While I'd feel it'd be lore-appropriate for this area to have elevated consequences due to capture and illithids having "interesting" interactions, I'm not sure how "End-Game" the Hive is in the UD, and rather not reduce their venues of casual exploration

    Underdarkers, how often do you visit the Illithid Hive in a non-high Epic group?
  • Dracolich/Vault of the Dead -
    It's another High-End area that's only visited by parties of epic characters. While there's some dissonance between these undead having some consequence and others not, it could be explained away by the weird purple gems lining the area.

    Once more, nothing permanent should come of it, but indefinite/long lasting? Sure.

    Dying there could grant a token giving -1 AB/AC/saves to imitate being drained. Removing it requires a documented Greater Restoration with a special ingredient/gold cost. These would stack, and being resurrected in there doesn't fix it.
  • Netherese Ruins -
    The Shadow plane is dangerous. While it can't lead to identity death like River Styx, it's easy to become stuck there and get lost. Perhaps a temporary spawn lock if you die there without being resurrected, to indicate you "escaping" the plane in some non-Sword Coast location and requiring time to return? At most, for a week.




How are these for more consequential PvE? Only thing affected is High-End Epic content, so casual play shouldn't suffer. And even high-end epic content doesn't make casual play impossible with permanent consequences, but it is enough of a PITA to make these areas require high degree of preparation.
For life to be worth living, afterlife must retain individuality, personal identity and  memories without fail  - https://www.sageadvice.eu/do-elves-reta ... afterlife/
A character belongs only to their player, and only them. And only the player may decide what happens.
User avatar
Touri
Posts: 1104
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2010 1:43 pm
Location: GMT +1

Re: Would u still play on BGTSCC if yr Toon had only "X" Liv

Unread post by Touri »

Would u still play on BGTSCC if yr Toon had only "X" Lives?
Nope. I would have used all my X lives already and my motivation to start my X character would be very low by time. Probably also because I would see only powerchars or those that stay at the inn, taverns or guilds. Well I doubt there would be still any guild as the guildleaders (if they not only hide in their hall...well those who stay in their hall may have died of boredom) would have all been assasinated, while those who could protect them are sleeping ooc, and unfortunatly others don't have the time and mood to lead the guild now. Members would get bored and go inactive. Players would start to hate each others, sending one complain after another to the DM's asking for decions because of the many unfair things that could happen during pvp or events where a dm slightly overated the strenght of the end boss and killed the whole guild. Now it would be (with peramadeth) much more important for the roles/lives of their characters. So I would leave for sure.

Also I see no real difference between forcing permadeath on your own characters and having it forced by the system or another player. Oh there is one. The winner (well the one overpowered evil/good super lvl 30 badass with those unfair items, wich he got probably granfathered, who has time to stay on 20 h a day and has almost killed every other highlvl of his enemy factions camping every important area) can't say, "hey I am better then you. I won! Hehe and you have to make a new toon. Have fun!" Well I think the reason I absolutly think that implementing such a feature would be the beginning of the end of BGTSCC is, that for me D&D is a game that should be played together and not against others. Honestly I play mostly for myself and the story and all happens in my fantasy and to my character. All the others players toons are here to make the world feel more alive for me. If I don't like char or someone's rp, I simply ignore it. Fur sure I try to make the world alive for others as well. Permadeath would only help me to make the world dead!
User avatar
Svabodnik
Posts: 369
Joined: Sun Apr 16, 2017 5:07 pm

Re: Would u still play on BGTSCC if yr Toon had only "X" Liv

Unread post by Svabodnik »

Personally, I like the notion of there being a feeling of risk involved to a character’s livelihood when faced with dire situations, even if (or better yet, despite of) the risk is never really actualized. There is definitely a change of mindset when one knows for certain that there is no threat to their character, and when there is even the slight sliver of potential and lasting loss. My brick of a suggestion, that would involve a spot of scripting in the background, but may serve to satisfy most camps – regenerating points which are lost during DM event and player conflict death. The numbers are tentative for the purpose of a quick example, and things may be adjusted for a more satisfying and balanced implementation:
Hidden: show
Every character has 100 points – let’s call them ‘Souls’ – to represent full vigor and the ability to wantonly return after an unfortunate turn of events. Dying to player conflict* or in an event*** would reduce the Souls pool by 33** points, meaning one would need four such occurrences to happen for the final embrace of death to claim the character’s life****. Note the ampersands, please. Now, every hour tick of the server ('THE SERVER HAS BEEN UP FOR N HOURS', we’ve all seen those) would regenerate 1 Soul to all those below the 100 mark. Therefore, the longer you play, yes, you have more risk being involved in events and coming in conflict with other players, but likewise it strengthens the character as a lasting presence. Overall, these aspects will combine to give both risk (or at least, a feeling of risk, which is what the intended purpose is) and a healthy degree of leniency with surviving for those who feel their character ought not be bound for the final grave.

*The depletion of Souls would be tied to a script already in place – selecting the “Return to home location” option for PvP from the server tools. This means meaningless deaths (lag while running a dungeon, accidentally being dropped by a summoned critter even when the controlling player had themselves set to subduing damage, or bad luck in an event where the DM involved does not feel as if the death carries any weight***) have no impact on the system.

**Bhaal’s Blessing and Myrkul’s Mirth (a.k.a. griefing prevention): In the realm of player conflict, the 33-point full Souls loss would come from being defeated by a player of equal or lower character level, once.

Myrkul’s Mirth, or whatever the system ought be named, would be a calculable reduction to the amount of Souls lost by a player if they were met with unfairly overwhelming odds – Depending on how much higher the winning character’s level is over that of the defeated opponent, the loser will take a reduced quantity of Souls loss (down to a little as 1 lost Soul from an epic-level player wantonly stomping down a fifth-level fledgling adventurer). As the server already has rules preventing multiple conflicts between characters within the same 24-hour period, this can be further expanded upon in that one cannot lose Souls more than once – either to the same player, or depending on how the system is implemented, perhaps not even in the same day.

Bhaal’s Blessing, or whatever the system ought be named, would conversely be a calculable reduction to how much harm a player can do to others in quick succession. The first successful Souls loss caused by a player would be the full potency under MM, but then BB would wane and they would do additionally reduced loss (i.e. full 100% loss for first, 66% for second, 44% third, etc.) ultimately preventing one individual from going on a meaningless killing spree. Full BB would be restored to a character once per week, day, server reset, or whatever would feel most viable.

***Automated Souls loss from player conflict would be handled under the purview of MM/BB. During events, however, DMs would impart Souls loss based on the circumstances of story and actions taken by players. A successful assassination attempt against a PC, as run by a DM, could cause much greater quantity. Conversely, brief carelessness against a lesser evil could cause much less (or a DM may assign Souls loss even to non-death related actions, such as a few points lost when battling the life-draining force of a big bad vampire/demon/wraith).

On the other hand, a consumable, nontradable token can be introduced into the system for DMs to award players for successful completion of events. These tokens can be saved up and then used at a later date to restore a set quantity lost Souls, once again to serve as a representation of the character as a lasting presence for the feats they have accomplished.

****Ultimately, even when reduced to 0 Souls, there’s nothing to say that extensive efforts from other players, through action and RP, can’t bring a lost but well-loved character back from the grave, and restore them to life through a DM event. Of course, these actions would be difficult in their own right, and may carry their own involved risks, and in that regard would not go counter to the base purpose of the system – to give a palpable weight to the death of a character.
"...I know that kind of man / It's hard to hold the hand of anyone / Who is reaching for the sky just to surrender..." – Leonard Cohen, The Stranger Song
User avatar
K'yon Oblodra
Recognized Donor
Posts: 1009
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:38 am
Location: Berlin

Re: Would u still play on BGTSCC if yr Toon had only "X" Liv

Unread post by K'yon Oblodra »

Gotta say these last posts were really interesting I like Hoihe's take at possible implementations. Where before the Was just OOC conflict there is now a decent idea one could build up on. (btw Illithid hive is not a very late game area, not sure if leveling the is effective but my character goes there quiet often to harvest Illithid brains for experimentation XD)

Touri has a good point as well the playing together rather than against each other is something that could be improved upon. It seems the whole having consequences for dying stems from ooc problems between players where neither respects the other enough to work out a good solution for their interactions.

Svebodniks' idea seems to be another good idea one could work on in detail to find something people might really like.

Like where this is headed.
K'yon Oblodra
Necromancer of the school of Necromancy
Silent seat for the school of Necromancy
User avatar
aaron22
Recognized Donor
Posts: 3525
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2016 3:39 pm
Location: New York

Re: Would u still play on BGTSCC if yr Toon had only "X" Liv

Unread post by aaron22 »

like that post by Svabodnik. alot to take in, but i would be willing to test if this were implemented. not sure if the whole player base would like this, but i really do not think this would upset the overall desires of both sides.

could add in a % injury that would be represented by an effect of a certain time. this could be variable depended upon the number of points taken in the "death". like 33 point withdrawal would multiply the percentage by 3.3 when the base is a 1%. so a 1 point loss only increases to 1.1% chance at injury. of course i know working with game rolls, 1% is more like 95%, but testing could tell a story here.
Khar B'ukagaroh
"You never know how strong you are until being strong is your only choice."
Bob Marley
User avatar
Hoihe
Posts: 4721
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 2:25 pm

Re: Would u still play on BGTSCC if yr Toon had only "X" Liv

Unread post by Hoihe »

I'm against the idea of that death system having anything permanent. However, temporary/indefinite? Sounds good.


My idea would of course require people to respect their character sheet and the abilities displayed for mental skills. The main reason you folk want more consequences is to cripple the opponent, right? Stop them from stopping you. Usually the targets are leader-style characters who lead guilds effectively, or pseudo-guilds.

What if at 0%, 25%, 50% and 75%, you suffered from rather debilitating hits to Intimidate, Diplomacy, Bluff, Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma? Can't lead a guild effectively if you have 8 across the board in mental skills.

I can't propose numbers, but I hope the idea and the intention of it makes sense! I for one cannot without feeling like I'm cheating play a Banner/leader style character without at least 12 charisma, 14 prefered.
For life to be worth living, afterlife must retain individuality, personal identity and  memories without fail  - https://www.sageadvice.eu/do-elves-reta ... afterlife/
A character belongs only to their player, and only them. And only the player may decide what happens.
User avatar
amber91
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2017 7:46 pm

Re: Would u still play on BGTSCC if yr Toon had only "X" Liv

Unread post by amber91 »

Rhifox wrote: a potential risk within existing mechanics (if not metagamed...).
I know I sound like a broken record at this point, but I can't get over the fact that any system proposed about permadeath/consequences simply SHIFTS THE LINE WHERE METAGAMING HAPPENS but never addresses the root of the problem, METAGAMING.

I postulate this:
  • 1) If you do not feel there are grave consequences to death on the server, you are metagaming.

    2) If you do not apply RP consequences appropriate to each death, you are metagaming.

    3) If there is any permadeath system in place, you will be metagaming that system again. (e.g. start counting lives, etc. etc.)
All of the above is immersion breaking for the individual doing it and for those around her.

Yet, your original problem will never go away because it is not about permadeath or consequences.

The problem is the deep "accepted" (not really accepted, but not really enforced or enforceable) culture of metagaming by you, by me, by those around us.

I am guilty of it, too. I don't really know how it can be helped when the mechanics and enforcement mechanisms cannot guarantee clean RP.

All I'm saying is, you can patch the symptoms ("lackadaisical attitudes toward death") all you want, but the root of the problem, the real disease, the metagaming, will still be there, and it will still continue to ever ruin your experience long after you've done away with the current symptoms because the disease will manifest itself in other ways later on, and ultimately kill you(r experience). (pun intended)

Basically, the proposals so far just sound to me like "picking your poison" or finding a pretense/lie/consequence that is easier to believe than the current death system in place. Not really finding the cure to the metagaming root of the problem (see the 3 postulates above) (which, let's be honest, may be a futile thing to address)

But if I were to pick a poison, I'd prefer the the world :
Hidden: show
Hoihe wrote:To start on a.... new tangent.

There are a few places on the server where I would agree with much greater consequences for failure than normal

These areas would be:
  • Hell -
    Dying in Hell, or even getting captured has special lore attached. Getting captured may lead to being thrown into River Styx, which I'd very much not have enforced unless a player wants to do it for story purposes.

    Consequences could be requiring a DM interaction so that the player must bargain with a devil to be allowed to leave, with a system of strikes increasing the difficulties of providing enough. Losing soul should not be enforced, but losing half your levels after dying many times? Or even starting from level 1 - sure. The level loss could be standard, alongside an option for gold/gear loss. A player could also try to bargain away other things, maybe even bargain for others.

    Perhaps you could bribe a devil ahead of time with gold worth around 200k+ to "rescue you" if you die, allowing you to feel safe in exchange for possible waste of gold.

    Raise Dead, unless that devil is bribed, doesn't work.
  • Illithid Hive-
    While I'd feel it'd be lore-appropriate for this area to have elevated consequences due to capture and illithids having "interesting" interactions, I'm not sure how "End-Game" the Hive is in the UD, and rather not reduce their venues of casual exploration

    Underdarkers, how often do you visit the Illithid Hive in a non-high Epic group?
  • Dracolich/Vault of the Dead -
    It's another High-End area that's only visited by parties of epic characters. While there's some dissonance between these undead having some consequence and others not, it could be explained away by the weird purple gems lining the area.

    Once more, nothing permanent should come of it, but indefinite/long lasting? Sure.

    Dying there could grant a token giving -1 AB/AC/saves to imitate being drained. Removing it requires a documented Greater Restoration with a special ingredient/gold cost. These would stack, and being resurrected in there doesn't fix it.
  • Netherese Ruins -
    The Shadow plane is dangerous. While it can't lead to identity death like River Styx, it's easy to become stuck there and get lost. Perhaps a temporary spawn lock if you die there without being resurrected, to indicate you "escaping" the plane in some non-Sword Coast location and requiring time to return? At most, for a week.
Hidden: show
VillageGreenWitch wrote: I would love to see BGTSCC going a lot more into the direction of RPG and away from "high fantasy MMO(R)PG".

Max level of 10 (9 for ECL 1, 8 for ECL 2), serious cutdown of magic and overpowered feats and items, massive cutdown on monster OPness as well, at max 2 toons, requirement to send in an application for your character in order to enable her/him to level up beyond level 2 - and permadeath of course, regardless if PvE, PvP or DM event.

I'd love to see characters behave responsibly.
And that requires that players fear a real loss. Some replaceable xp are not a real loss.
[/quote]
Hidden: show
And bringing back de-level XP loss, and XP loss for level 30s. I'd go even further and increase XP loss scaling at higher levels (e.g. 30 lose 30k, not 3k)
User avatar
Hoihe
Posts: 4721
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 2:25 pm

Re: Would u still play on BGTSCC if yr Toon had only "X" Liv

Unread post by Hoihe »

Regarding De-level XP loss, while I'd actually support it, is unfeasible. It is a possible means to exploit the server or cause headaches for the admins due to class mechanics and scripts.
For life to be worth living, afterlife must retain individuality, personal identity and  memories without fail  - https://www.sageadvice.eu/do-elves-reta ... afterlife/
A character belongs only to their player, and only them. And only the player may decide what happens.
User avatar
aaron22
Recognized Donor
Posts: 3525
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2016 3:39 pm
Location: New York

Re: Would u still play on BGTSCC if yr Toon had only "X" Liv

Unread post by aaron22 »

metagaming is something everyone does all the time over almost every aspect of this game. our characters would not know the numbers that we work through all the time. DnD is a game of numbers and rules at its core. always has been. and metagaming is part of knowing this. a DM can mix things up but are limited to serve the whole so not to upset a minority that might feel rules broken with too much mixing up of the numbers. its all numbers an rules that make to represent as reality to RP around. metagaming abounds.

so we make more rules with numbers to create more reality while we metagame everything.
Khar B'ukagaroh
"You never know how strong you are until being strong is your only choice."
Bob Marley
User avatar
K'yon Oblodra
Recognized Donor
Posts: 1009
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:38 am
Location: Berlin

Re: Would u still play on BGTSCC if yr Toon had only "X" Liv

Unread post by K'yon Oblodra »

I know I have meta gamed my own death... Being in a party with very high level characters while being very low to RP with them... Would have sucked to have to RP my own death cause a damn cube jumped me and one shot my frail character.... Instead it was RPed as getting knocked out... Is that still metagamed?

This was when I started playing and was happy to find anyone in the UD... That has luckily changed to a point I now sometimes couldn't even avoid RPing when I just needed a couple 100 xp which is of course great ;)

Edit: I like the special areas idea although I'd prefer to not lose normal areas for the UD as it seems we have a bit too few already XD

Edit: actually the Upperdark seems to be the perfect spot for these regions as they are the contested areas...
K'yon Oblodra
Necromancer of the school of Necromancy
Silent seat for the school of Necromancy
User avatar
Mork
Posts: 317
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2017 1:51 pm

Re: Would u still play on BGTSCC if yr Toon had only "X" Liv

Unread post by Mork »

K'yon Oblodra wrote:I know I have meta gamed my own death... Being in a party with very high level characters while being very low to RP with them... Would have sucked to have to RP my own death cause a damn cube jumped me and one shot my frail character.... Instead it was RPed as getting knocked out... Is that still metagamed?
Its quite common to ignore PvE death in RP. I've seen it many times roleplayed as temporary loss of consciousness without any serious wounds or even not roleplayed at all. Most of the time when I die in PvE myself I just stand up and shrug in off like no actual damage would happen to me - witch when you'll analyze how healing magic works in pnp is really not that bad. Chug a healing pot and you're good.
Post Reply

Return to “General Discussion”