Would u still play on BGTSCC if yr Toon had only "X" Lives?

[aaron22]

the thing people dont realize is that playing your sheet is metagaming. what you know OOC dictates what we do IC. metagaming.

I know I have meta gamed my own death... Being in a party with very high level characters while being very low to RP with them... Would have sucked to have to RP my own death cause a damn cube jumped me and one shot my frail character.... Instead it was RPed as getting knocked out... Is that still metagamed?

underlined portions are also metagaming. but dont get me wrong, we all do it. and that is ok. it would be really hard to play the game without it. i dont think i could. this is a reply that metagaming is a problem. it is and it isnt. could you play without metagaming anything?

so... what do we do? make rules so that we can have real consequences to our characters. so that we can turn that metagame of OOC knowledge dictating what we do IC work toward a more realistic RP experience for you and everyone around you.

[K'yon Oblodra]

I'd really think the thing we are missing most have something to do with respect if parties would respect one another we could come to agreements after PvP that would make everyone happy...

Things like permanent death are also things that can only be worked out with respect to one another and I'd go as far as to say that basing something like a permanent death on the outcome of a PvP fight just mechanical is just really wrong and should rather be agreed on beforehand unless both feel like putting all they have into that one basket XD.

[aaron22]

really feel that OOC discussion before PvP should be a given. that way the two parties can understand each other's desires. when someone imposes their will onto another that is something that can turn anything sour. not just PvP. be courteous and respectful and get along OOC while your characters fight IC.

[Mork]

When someone imposes their will onto another that is something that can turn anything sour. not just PvP.

On one side you want to fight with lack of consequences for our actions, on another you don't want anyone to "impose his will" on you...
Among those problems I'd say second to be much more serious and present on the server in 90% of situations due to current ruleset. It eventually also leads exactly to lack of consequences for ones actions and flattens everyone-s experience.

Seriously if server staff sees us players as people who just cannot deal with "imposing someone-s will on them" then we're surely not ready to deal with increased permadeaths rates.

[aaron22]

Mork. What I am referring to about imposing will. Is lets say your character is brave. That's his thing. Thinks he is a great swordsman too. He meets another swordsman who also thinks he's the best. So the two battle, but the outcome is easy to know because one us 6 levels higher. Now the victor wants to make a statement with this victory and he is also sadistic. So he hangs the corpse like a scarecrow outside balders gate with a sign declaring victor swordsman is without equal. Loser swordsman player would be a bit sour on that. And to me it would be understandable. What if swordsman two was a drow and loser swordsman is surface elf. And drow swordsman dragged the loser down to sshamath where surface elf cannot be rezzed.

[Mork]

Now the victor wants to make a statement with this victory and he is also sadistic. So he hangs the corpse like a scarecrow outside balders gate with a sign declaring victor swordsman is without equal. Loser swordsman player would be a bit sour on that.

That is why I wouldn't put much weight to PvP results. If someone decided to put extensive description of gutting his defeated opponent then good for him if it fits his character. Cause I know it surely fits the setting, and there is absolutely no reason for 2 things:
- being salty afterwards.
- playing actual serious consequences of such death like permadying or RPing serious trauma.

You got rezzed and all is cool. Let people kill each other every 24 hours for fun! Let there be blood and guts flying. Normally I'd follow this guide: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-0hgP1tNH8 but all our characters do not play in the same team.
There - here we have PvP explained and dealt with. Now when and only when we'll learn dealing with it in such healthy manner there can be consequences that evolve around anything else except PvP in wich case it will never work as you noticed. You can even explain it IC by some houserule. Our server is not exact mirror reflection of Faerunian world so we might as well live in variant where multiple resurections are common thing, or Myrkul lost a huge chunk of his book or something.

We're forced here to choose lesser evil:
- Accept system like above that allows everyone to play their characters when it comes to conflict.
- Keep "consensual PvP" in every situation and flatten any hostilities to gutter level.
There is potentially option 3 that I could see working and be middle-ground but is not something I'd recomend.
- Apply permanent account-wide loss of server rules protection for those who simply prefer it. Then hostile races can simply run past one another if players behind them decide to not be in this group.

[SBlack]

No. If max level was 10 and DM presence was plentiful and overlapping I'd be on board. Takes far too long to get to epic and gear up much less to level 30.

If folk want to play PvP heavy open combat worlds, there are plenty of games and servers that offer good to superb gameplay where a high level of skill is required to engage in PVP and is far more satisfying. If one has spent significant time in open RP worlds you find out relatively quickly how annoying it is for bored max level characters trolling popular areas for low to near max level characters waiting to ambush gank them repeatedly for their own amusment. On the other hand there are very few real heavy medium to hardcore RP settings and servers even with monthly subs. The only thing keeping me and a number of reasons is for the RP without the bull.

When it comes down to it, you just need to communicate with the other players and make binding agreements approved by staff, nothing further is required. I've been part of a handful, perhaps more I might not have been aware, of encounters were such happened where both parties agreed to retire their characters at the end of conflict RP.

[Face]

Mork. What I am referring to about imposing will. Is lets say your character is brave. That's his thing. Thinks he is a great swordsman too. He meets another swordsman who also thinks he's the best. So the two battle, but the outcome is easy to know because one us 6 levels higher. Now the victor wants to make a statement with this victory and he is also sadistic. So he hangs the corpse like a scarecrow outside balders gate with a sign declaring victor swordsman is without equal. Loser swordsman player would be a bit sour on that. And to me it would be understandable. What if swordsman two was a drow and loser swordsman is surface elf. And drow swordsman dragged the loser down to sshamath where surface elf cannot be rezzed.

'loser' swordman should not be sour cous he wanted to fight...
And if you lose and dont want to be perma killed shoot the winner a tell im sure he wil fix a way so you wil be able to get raised by some magix.
Then you rp or dont play your toon for a few days aka healing back up and pew pew you get to run around agen with your sword up high.

[aaron22]

Let's be clear here. I have no trouble accepting defeat in PvP. And the consequences that come from losing. I have lost as many as I have won. Never have I been sour. I guess I was hypothosizing. But again never have I imposed anything upon anyone without a discussion. And even then it was only a few gold. So I hypothesized what I would imagine many players would consider inappropriate. That was it.

Regarding consequences for death. I would be in favor of any system that the admin felt justified as a penalty for death. Even if it was none. Even if that is not what I prefer. I think what many have proposed so far are very clever and enjoy the discussion of those. I have not been able to propose an idea better than what others have.

Keep the ideas coming.

[Mork]

We all hypothesize here Aaron - everyone with his ideas on how he'd improve the situation to his taste. Myself I'd probably avoid extensive descriptions on how my evil char profanates losers body but as a player I wouldn't find it wrong if someone else did it.

In the end I simply agree with:

Maybe rather than present the solution (e.g. permadeath), we could start with discussing the problem that precipitated the suggestion? Do people not feel enough gravity in the RP atmosphere that they need to incorporate permanent character loss? What is the underlying issue you are trying to address?

But really think that "the problem that precipitated the suggestion" Is heavily related to "consent to everything" notion of rules that we have - even if many players don't see it that way it's where problem started growing. When our community learns to move away from this concept and play without it we'll begin to notice improvement. Transition will not be smooth as the damage is already done, and a lot of learning and adjusting would be required but it's one way that will work in my opinion.

[aaron22]

I don't think I follow you mork on what it means to move away from consent to everything? I am between possibilities of what tnis could be implying.

[Tsidkenu]

Although I have only skim-read the last 8 pages, I haven't yet seen this link appear, which is probably the most ideal solution to the whole permadeath debate in my opinion.

[Face]

Although I have only skim-read the last 8 pages, I haven't yet seen this link appear, which is probably the most ideal solution to the whole permadeath debate in my opinion.

No not really.
If joe and jill have a pvp club badge and they start a fight around timmy and timmy doesnt see a rp out offerd he takes screen shots and shit hits the fan.

[Tsidkenu]

Different club, Face. The Permadeath fan club is for those players who wish to more strictly RP their character's death. That may/may not have anything to do with PvP. The thread exists for them to publically record the reason/s why their character has received permastrikes (not necessarily from the DM team either) or been perma-killed.

[Face]

Different club, Face. The Permadeath fan club is for those players who wish to more strictly RP their character's death. That may/may not have anything to do with PvP. The thread exists for them to publically record the reason/s why their character has received permastrikes (not necessarily from the DM team either) or been perma-killed.

Haha your right i just miss read it