Caster Cleric: Heirophant and Hospitaler query

[electric mayhem]

So,

Another late night bottle of wine idea.

Cleric that is primarily a caster, uses summons or party members for tank/primary attack. Backs up with buffs/AOE spells/heals.
High CL required to resist dispels.


As I understand. Heirophant is exactly like taking more cleric levels, except that you get more 'feats' more often. Cleric 1 feat every 3 levels, Heiro 1 every 2 levels.
?? Do you get the standard cleric feats (1 every 3 levels) as well as the Heiro feats as a Bonus Feat offering? So over 10 levels, get a total of 3Cl + 5Heir = 8 feat selections (obviously choice restricted depending upon what type)

Plus... the Heiro feats look pretty sweet. So as a caster primarily would be taking:
- the Spell Power 1-3 feats.
-Unsure about Divine Spell Power / Advanced Divine Spell Power as it takes a couple feats, then takes Turn uses to activate etc (especially if the caster cleric will not have high CHA).
-Blast Infidel for uber harms for boss mobs?
-Maybe inscribe rune to store Teleports or some other handy spell, that doesn't need to sit in spellbook the whole time.
-and if not Inscribe Rune, perhaps, Gift of Deity, but think that only works for epic melee priest smasher style of play? (please correct me or offer suggestions on it).

I have heard some support for a 10Cl/10Heir/10Hosp build.
I'm curious as to what the 10 Hosp actually gains on a Caster build.
From the way I read the description, you only get 6/10 CL from taking 10 Hosp as opposed to full 10 CL on cleric levels.
You also get:
1 lay on hands use per day (not very useful, potions)
2 remove disease uses / day (not very useful, potions)
3 bonus feats. (probably HIGHLY useful)
Are these three bonus feats ON TOP OF feats you already get as part of level progression as a cleric i.e. 1 every 3 cleric levels (3 in 10 levels) + 3 in 10 Hosp = 6 feats in 10 Hosp levels? (Bonus Feats obviously restricted to available list).

So does that mean the effective trade off with Hospitaler is 4 CL for 3 extra feats?

As such, on the topic of feats.
What are the essential must have feats for this build type?
-Spell Cast Prodigy is a must.
-Ext Spell for duration
-Combat Exp or ICExp? (take with bonus feats in Hosp if taking those levels?)
-Blindfight? (not overly relevant if not doing much melee? but relevant if harm casting or aoe casting enemies?)
Any other ideas?


Soooo... I guess ultimately, I'm wondering what a good all round caster buffer summons cleric that performs well in a group but can handle itself well, especially in epic areas (including potentially hell runs) looks like? I'm assuming that it's using Heiro and/or Hosp.

And how does one 'play this style' through the server? Is it good against epic undead (durlags), epic lizards (cold and hot), and eventually making its way into the layer of avernus?

And no thankyou, not interested in the FVS/Pal builds.

[Deathgrowl]

I have heard some support for a 10Cl/10Heir/10Hosp build.
I'm curious as to what the 10 Hosp actually gains on a Caster build.

It's actually quite simple:

Cleric30 is 30 caster levels, obviously. Because of going into epic levels with cleric, you get extra bonus feats, and thus more feats to fill up with Greater Wisdom. You can get 35 base wisdom on a +2 wisdom race this way. Which makes for a decent DC cleric.

Cleric20/hierophant10 gets 32 caster levels, provided you pick two spell power as the hierophant levels. This loses the epic bonus feats, however, so your wisdom will be a bit lower. You get essentially the same DCs because of the increased CL.

Cleric10/hierophant10/Hospitaler10 is great because with hospitaler being 6/10 caster levels, practiced spellcaster counters it. Hospitaler also gets 3 bonus feats. Two of those can be taken in epic levels, and can be used for wisdom feats. This means you can get 32 casterlevel and a base wisdom of 34 with a +2 wisdom race.

Does that explain it well enough?

[electric mayhem]

Yep.... I think so...

The Hosp bonus feats... are they still on top of the normal feat progression of 'cleric' levels?
i.e. my question.

Are these three bonus feats ON TOP OF feats you already get as part of level progression as a cleric i.e. 1 every 3 cleric levels (3 in 10 levels) + 3 in 10 Hosp = 6 feats in 10 Hosp levels? (Bonus Feats obviously restricted to available list).

This is a mechanics questions around feat progression.

[Deathgrowl]

Feat progression is the same regardless of class.

Up to level 20, you get one feat at level 1 and every three levels from level 3. After 20, you get a feat every other level, starting on level 21. So like this:

1
3
6
9
12
15
18
21
23
25
27
29

This is, as I said, regardless of what classes fill these levels. The feat progression is basic leveling. The bonus feats of hospitaler are indeed exactly that: Bonus feats.

[electric mayhem]

Niiiiice. Thanks for the confirmation.

So basically, the shortfall in taking hospitaler levels with CL, is made up by taking practised spell caster.

Happy to hear from anyone else with experience in the Heiro feats department as well, still interested in the nuisances of that, the playstyles, but also the suitability of the overall design to handle 'existing' in all aspects of PvM and Epic areas.

[electric mayhem]

Mmm.... just ran a test in JEGs and backed up with NWNDB. Don't think the spell casting level function is working properly to get Heirophant available by level 15. (unless JEGs isn't quite fully functional compared to actual live server?)
10 Cleric straight up, appropriate skill points in place and meta magic feat.
4 Hosp (11-14) sinking remainder of points to 15 lore relgion.
Wis at 19 base.
At level 15... heirophant still not available.

10 Cleric should get Spell Level to 5th tier.
4 levels of Hospitaler should get +2 to spell casting tiers?
Total of 7th circle available at completion of level 14?

Is there specific feats which get given (PrC qual feats or an actual Spell casting modifier feat) for Hospitaler levels?

[Rudolph]

You need to take one more lvl with Cleric spellcasting progression to reach the 7th tier requirement for Hierophant (13 are needed, not 12).

[electric mayhem]

*facepalm*

Was reading that backwards. Some reason thought that the Spellcasting Level modifier feat granted by Hospitaler was a Tier modifier.... not the caster level / char level modifier.... doh

[vale100]

I have heard some support for a 10Cl/10Heir/10Hosp build.
I'm curious as to what the 10 Hosp actually gains on a Caster build.

It's actually quite simple:

Cleric30 is 30 caster levels, obviously. Because of going into epic levels with cleric, you get extra bonus feats, and thus more feats to fill up with Greater Wisdom. You can get 35 base wisdom on a +2 wisdom race this way. Which makes for a decent DC cleric.

Cleric20/hierophant10 gets 32 caster levels, provided you pick two spell power as the hierophant levels. This loses the epic bonus feats, however, so your wisdom will be a bit lower. You get essentially the same DCs because of the increased CL.

Cleric10/hierophant10/Hospitaler10 is great because with hospitaler being 6/10 caster levels, practiced spellcaster counters it. Hospitaler also gets 3 bonus feats. Two of those can be taken in epic levels, and can be used for wisdom feats. This means you can get 32 casterlevel and a base wisdom of 34 with a +2 wisdom race.

Does that explain it well enough?

WOW! I need to pass all my character ideas by you, I think great detail and info - thanks too!

[sir_blacksoutalot]

I believe you could also go Cleric 24/Hierophant 6. That still allows you to pick up Spellpower II, thus reaching CL 32 which grants another point toward DC checks [you get +1 DC for each 3 CL over 20 (23/26/29/32)].

The advantage is you'll gain access to one more epic feat as compared to going Cleric 20/Hiero 10.

The disadvantage is losing out on those other two Hierophant-specific feats. So I think it depends on which feats you're aiming to include in your build.

I've tested it in JEGS and that's how it seems to work, at least for feat selection. I'm sure one of our pro builders can check me on my CL/DC analysis.

[chad878262]

That's why DG recommended the cleric Hierophant hospitaler split. Gets you 2 epic bonus feats to make up for the ones you would get by staying pure while still allowing 10 levels of Hierophant.