Would u still play on BGTSCC if yr Toon had only "X" Lives?

[aaron22]

No powerbuild is immune from a skilled DM's challenge!

Yeah but that is covered by the "I wouldn't take many risks either." I bet people would refuse to participate in dangerous events, or log out if it becomes dangerous ..

not wanting to risk death because of danger??? isnt that EXACTLY what we are speaking about. you are kind of making the point right there. it is now your character's persona. This is precisely why i would prefer such a system. of course continued "danger logging" would and should be frowned upon. that is 100% exploiting.

A DM steamrolling, like steve put, would also be much more complaint creating than it is even now. so i only take that example with a grain. if this set up was installed (which it likely will not), the DM team would go well out of there way to not even give an impression of any kind of steamroll. likely making events easier than the environment.

[Valefort]

aaron, would there be any risk takers in such a world ?

A few years ago DM TheVoid answered an initiative by players during an event by "ok but if you go on you're all subject to a permastrike if you die".

No one went on. And we were many

[aaron22]

aaron, would there be any risk takers in such a world ?

A few years ago DM TheVoid answered an initiative by players during an event by "ok but if you go on you're all subject to a permastrike if you die".

No one went on. And we were many

i am sorry that happened. I would go every time. perhaps what i want from the game is different than others. and that is ok. ok for me and ok for you. that is why we have these discussions.

[aaron22]

aaron, would there be any risk takers in such a world ?

A few years ago DM TheVoid answered an initiative by players during an event by "ok but if you go on you're all subject to a permastrike if you die".

No one went on. And we were many

there are memorable moments in this game. i have a few. that would have been one for me. i do not take those moments lightly. they are feel good moments. win or lose. and i have lost. still loved it.

thanks DM Sword/ DM hera/ DM Arrakeen. I am sure you do not remember, but i do. and winning can happen in a loss.

[Steve]

aaron, would there be any risk takers in such a world ?

A few years ago DM TheVoid answered an initiative by players during an event by "ok but if you go on you're all subject to a permastrike if you die".

No one went on. And we were many

And that then was the biggest metagaming folly I have heard of, so far!

There actually is zero risk, in THIS world. Except for 100/xp per level. But even then, you can't lose any XP below your current level, which is you see Players take their PCs against superior odds, knowing that dying has no consequence (at that time).

A little more realism, please.

[Valefort]

It was bad, granted ! And I always regret doing so, faced with the same question since I always went on

That said it should give you an idea of the things people are ready to do to not die, even oocly. Just looking at the two of you I wonder how many characters you leveled up over your time here ? 20 ?

Plenty of people don't do that !

[chad878262]

It really is a matter of whether the server is for a small select group that will stick around or if it is based on bringing in new faces. As I said, for folks that have been around for several years it's one thing, but with regard to attracting new players it's simply not going to attract many.

I can honestly say I have never left an event where I was told failure could lead to perma-strike. However, having that even be the case has been exceedingly rare in my experience. I can absolutely agree that DM Events, especially those related to the annual meta-plot should make greater use of them, and for those that reach their third strike they should have the opportunity to make a grand story of the death (or for the near death/resurrection for those who are not on their third strike). Would be great if DM events didn't allow the use of rez scrolls and actually required a 'real' healer (druid/FvS/Cleric) if you want some protection from death.

All this said, I am not on the DM Team, but I am sure they have plenty of issues in the past with this type of thing, so are likely hesitant to enforce so as to avoid having difficulties with players complaints.

[aaron22]

It was bad, granted ! And I always regret doing so, faced with the same question since I always went on

That said it should give you an idea of the things people are ready to do to not die, even oocly. Just looking at the two of you I wonder how many characters you leveled up over your time here ? 20 ?

Plenty of people don't do that !

i have(had):
2-30 (ded now)
1-29
2-20
1-18
2-14 (1 ded)
and like 5 or 6 in the 5-12 range.

i started playing in jan 2016.

[Valefort]

Yeah that's quite enormous.

1 level 30
1 level 23
1 level 18
1 level 8

Over 6 years, and the last two were over the last month just to check how leveling was nowadays.

[Steve]

It was bad, granted ! And I always regret doing so, faced with the same question since I always went on

That said it should give you an idea of the things people are ready to do to not die, even oocly. Just looking at the two of you I wonder how many characters you leveled up over your time here ? 20 ?

Plenty of people don't do that !

I leveled 1 Character to 30. I think within a month of reaching that 30, I RCR'd to another idea, down to 20. I have 2 epic level toons, 2 mids, 1 pre-teen.

Maybe I have played 20 Characters, more or less. Most Characters are rolled up with specific goals in mind, in order to play into the Server Campaign, or help develop a Guild/Faction, or for me to have the change to RP with other Players that are not part of a group I am currently in, nor can really interact with that group (IC or OOC).

I like to make my Characters have use value, where their "existence"—short of long—can have the greatest impact and affect on the Environment. As well, I do not have hours and hours in the days/weeks/months in order to just "hang out" online. A couple of hours every other day tops, and I want to make those hours count for something (socializing is an inherent activity, but that often happens via Tells OOC, while I am making a solid go with my RP of my Character).

I also play with the idea that, at any moment, this Server could turn off. It nearly did, a few times, and I keep that idea in the back of my mind, that if I'm going to invest a minute of my RL time into this game, I want to see it achieve goals and make lasting affects. Chatting around the campfire, for me, that kind of daily "I'm just here, online" role-play is the antithesis of why I play this game.

Now that I've shared...lol....

But seriously, even if you have 1 Character, and either 1 at a time or just 1 forever, make that Character shine! Make them live as if they truly live, with some semblance of reality to their decisions! The fact that I know that you know that I know that you know your PC cannot die unless you the Player make that decision, means I know that you know that I know your role-play is going to ALWAYS take that into account, and thus, consequence for actions is pretty lightly taken, overall.

I've seen it lots as a Player, I saw it EVEN MORE as a DM and the HDM.

I fully understand attachment to Character(s), and that somehow, for many, BGTSCC is setup in such a way that investment is difficult and the need to remain fulfilled in this investment has turned into a typical shying away from Risk. Even in these hypothetical conversations, it seems so very many cannot even accept greater Risk if they also experience greater Reward.

But this is just a game!! Do you not play games in which you may lose? Or, why is THIS game such an investment that one is, for lack of a better word, scared to lose something? Please, someone explain this issue to me, because I still cannot grasp why Death to your Character seems like the most horrible thing in the world.

Just to note: I've seen so many Players make meaningful Lives, and thus, meaningful Deaths of their Characters, and it really seems that it is an missing element to the experience of playing this game.

Now, just applying Permastrikes to your own Toon is an avenue, and I have done it, and many others have as well. But listen: doing that might be possible, but it makes for a very weird and unrewarding game experience when the person next to you, is not upholding those same "rules." As I mentioned just above, I know for sure 99% that Players make decisions in their RP fully determined by the "no lose, no consequence" factor.

The simplest version of this is the Level 30 PC Raiding parties that go on, on BGTSCC. They tour the Server for the best loot, knowing that a) they can't die (for real, b) they can get rezzed with ease, c) that falling in battle has no consequence, d) that this action can be repeated infinitum because the Server just provides and provides and provides....

WTF?

Straight up: it is nearly impossible to take anyone seriously, because, one doesn't have to take their Character's Life seriously. Again, I suggest to everyone with a dog in this fight, toread this blog post. I think there is so much potential there, and well written.

Cheers.

[Snarfy]

Would you still play on BGTSCC if your Toon was given a "life limitation?" And how would that affect your RolePlay?

If the engine didn't have a propensity for rolling 20's constantly? Yep.
If monsters(again, the engine) behaved a little more "realistically" and didn't metagame everything about characters in combat? Sure, why not.
If the content hadn't been scaled up to accommodate for optimized characters? Yeah, I probably would.
If some sort of script existed to adequately represent mechanical death(temporary stat loss, etc), and if resurrection/restoration was a more intensive/expensive process(and raise dead scrolls didn't exist)... plus, if resurrection/restoration could be used as a means of countering the "X amount of lives" limitation... absolutely.

A little more realism, please.

Given what I wrote above, I don't really think that the mechanical foundation for "realism" is fleshed out enough. In order for IC realism to really have meaning, we need to be able to react to the environment in a realistic(as realistic as one can react to a fantasy setting) way, and the environment does some pretty absurd things. But, such realism doesn't necessarily start and end with the mechanical environment, it has a lot to do with the behavior of players, which brings me to the most relevant aspect of the question of playing with life limitations:

If players were more accommodating and responsible, both towards each other and the setting, and the IC mindset towards killing/dying somehow flourished into something less casual than it has become, then: Yes, I'd still play here if a life limitation existed.

Once again, and not to sound jaded(even though I clearly am!), the foundation for responsible IG behavior would need to be rock solid in order for any type of "X amount of lives" feature to properly function.

[aaron22]

vale. if you had "prestige" levels on your 30, how many times over would you have leveled to 30. I stopped playing both my 30's about a week after getting them there. my 29 is on her way out as well. and the reason i dont care after i get 30 is because they didnt do anything. there is no death defying story to retell. just a level and skill and people i met along the way. there is less reason to play them at that point. the only significant challenge i faced is gone.

[aaron22]

ok. so what about this. as we are. the server as it is now. why can i not RP that my character is seemingly death proof? that while i have amnesia of my own near death, others around me just see me disappear and regain full health at next sun. how i performed what should be death magic and destruction of a victim to only see it return later like we are actually on some facet of acheron.

[Touri]

If I am honest in a world where a simple spell could kill me (with a 5% chance by rolling a "1") I wouldn't even go out of my room unless I could protect myself. So the only one who would step outside would be a Mage/Cleric/FS/SS/Druid. For the rest it is much too dangerous to go out if the char have any powerfull enemies. As this could also be ic knowledge as your char probably heard about such spells you have all reason not to do anything at all or you meta your fear and let you char stupidetly die. That doesn't sound like any fun for me.

I also had an event where only 4 were left out of 15 players as the dm said it would take permastrikes if we die. We barely made it (also because so many had left) and my char died behind the lines because of lag and the bad mechanics. So I got luck that the DM was kind and didn't permastrike my char. Honestly I only joined because I didn't have a permastrike. If I already would have had 2 permastrike maybe my char would have gone but l never. My character may have no fear of death if the reward is the destruction of a greater evil, but most players have fear of loosing their charcter even if you promise them the best items. Metagaming welcome.
Also it made not that difference for the fun. The only difference for me was, that a lot of players quit the event and that was less fun in my opinion.

Well and for zero risk...hrm I am pretty pissed if I die even if my char is lvl 30. Often a party wipe is the end of the session and the fun for the evening as you get ported to fai. So I am still pretty careful not to die even at lvl 30.

There is no realism in a fantasyworld at all. But sure we all could imagine moving hours through empty wilderness without any encounter. Well that would be really realistic. But unfortunatly I don't have so much time and I would think it would get boring sooner or later.

Still you can do with your char and rp what you want and noone will and should keep you from. So I totally don't get, why you want permadeath (or anything else) forced upon any other player. IMO the only reason for this is, that you have fun out of the lost of others which is sad. This game is not about winning and loosing. It is about playing together.

Ive seen permadeath on some nwn1 servers, and like others posted before, you end up with a group of hard core old veterans,some of which resort to munchkining, and a pool of noobies that get frustrated and leave real quick.

That is actually what would happen and nothing else no matter how often we let this discussion rise again and how much we discuss.

[Snarfy]

ok. so what about this. as we are. the server as it is now. why can i not RP that my character is seemingly death proof?

I like analogies, so here's one: Think of BGTSCC as an upscale burger joint(like FatBurger... if you don't have those where you live, I feel sad for you), and we're the customers.

You are totally welcome to order anything off the menu... you can eat your XXL avocado burger with your hands, with utensils, or even chow down face-first in your plate. It's your gosh-darned burger(character, and your RP), and you can eat it however the hell you want! Whether or not other customers(players) will be amused by your use of utensils, or be able to stomach watching you slam your face into and devouring your burger is another matter altogether.

What you cannot do(*cough* Steve)... is waltz into your upscale burger joint, ask the manager to add a 9oz filet mignon to the menu(medium rare, of course), tell him to replace the cactus cut fries with quinoa salad, and insist that all the other customers use a knife and fork when they eat, or risk getting the heave-ho from the premises!

And why can't you do this? Because: your upscale burger joint wont necessarily have the equipment or ingredients(resources) to make your filet mignon and quinoa salad, the cooks(devs) will likely just stand there with clueless expressions at the thought of learning for months how to make your food, and the manager(Maecius. ) will probably lose his marbles attempting to come up with ways to adequately enforce the use of utensils.

Dangit. I've gone and made myself hungry.