Out of curiousity: BGTSCC and the difficulty level

[VillageGreenWitch]

DISCLAIMER: This is not meant to start any "war", I am also not attempting to complain, not at all. I enjoy playing here.
I am just somewhat baffled at the quotes below and would like to receive some general feedback from the playerbase.

In my several years of player experience here I always had two impressions:

(1) BGTSCC is - due to being based on D&D - caster-centered. You're not a caster? You're second class. It's not even something that BGTSCC is deliberately trying to achieve - it's just the way D&D is working.

(2) BGTSCC tries to create a gravely dangerous environment that can be survived by the strongest and best-equipped only.
I mean - I played and play characters that were/are built with RP in mind. In earlier times it was RP only, until I realized that you simply cannot survive for long outside an inn (or campfire) if you are not planning your build accordingly.
But even if planning out a proper RP build (that is not minmaxed for example) I never had the feeling of being even remotely as viable in PvE as, say, a Favoured Soul/Paladin of Helm.

Hidden: show

(I never - until very recently - had a character utilizing one of those "classic" powerbuilds this server is allowing, like FS26/BG4 or Bards or Clerics etc.
Result? I have "seen" four bosses in all those years:
(1) A couple years ago I went to the Haunted Mansion in a group of perhaps 20 chars. The three or four most powerful of them went up to Chaos and effortlessly beat him, we others went up after that and looted.
(2) Last summer I "saw" the Black Dragon. Infact I was two rooms before him while the powerbuilds beat him. Afterwards we weaklings entered his lair and looted.
(3) I have seen the White Dragon and the Pit Fiend Lord (? The one guarding the exit from the hell shop) twice recently. I was escorted through the castle, the castle basement, I did not hit once in all fights below the castle, I stood back infact. I died on the way TO the Hell shop and again on the way BACK FROM them Hell shop and had to be rezzed by the powerbuilds escorting my char.

I have yet to see about 90% of the epic area content of the server.

And even when I once reach level 30 with Shea I very much doubt that I can do anything else than staying back and hoping my friends can do something about any of the above mentioned encounters.
Shea will not even be able to help beating them.

At the moment Shea is level 22 and almost fully equipped with Hell Gear - and she cannot fight more than one hill giant at once, and the chieftain she can fight not at all.

Once again, that is fine. Really. Shea is not meant to go out and single-handedly dispatch any Nagas or Mountain Ogres.
To reiterate: I am not complaining, I am just curious/puzzled.)

So reading the following quotes left me rather bewildered:

It is my belief that there is little reason to build NOT considering ultimate power options.

In fact there is a big reason : being challenged, powerbuilds are essentially boring. Content is not even remotely catering to powerbuilds, even low powered builds can go through PvE content with some effort.

It is apparent that "might equals right" on BGTSCC. It not only solves Events in 99% of the time, it defines PvP and gets your Toon to the best Areas for acquiring Loot.

As a former DM you know well that a DM can always challenge a party of adventurers, no matter how much they powerbuilt. PvP is another beast and PvE effectiveness is not exactly the same thing as PvP power. So .. might equals right ? It's relative, for PvE you don't need all that much.

Am I just too dumb to play this game on this server at all?
I mean I cannot believe I am the only one not playing an FS, Warlock, Bard, Wizard, Cleric etc and not having epic gear (above Hell shop powerlevel) that is struggling with the difficulty level of the mobs.

And so again - what are your opinions about the above quotes (especially the passages I marked)?
Really curious about your answers.

(Would have loved to make this a poll, but am apparently blind enough to not see that functionality. )

[V'rass]

The difficulty is way too OP. Monsters have hp, ac, and ab way beyond what they should and the high lv mobs all have imp evasion and DR even if they should not. There is absolutely no reason a giant should have Imp evasion or even high dex for that matter, and goblins should not be having more then 30 hp and should not be hitting people with ac above 20. And yeah if you are not a caster then you are screwed. Thank god i try to powerbuild or i would not even be able to take a walk without dying.

[Young Werther]

I believe polls are disabled in this neck of the forums.

One answer to your problem may be the old idear that DnD is a party game but... another answer is that you should have made a halfling.


#halflingop #shouldhavebeenhin

[chad878262]

***This is my personal opinion and should not be taken to represent any sort of QC or Admin mandate. It is simply how I see the content.***


Young Werther got it right IMO, D&D is a game based on the idea of a party of 4-6... Any boss is doable with that many in your party, though the White Dragon may still kill a party of 6 without a very good Tank and an equally very good healer.

The content is NOT built to challenge power builds, it IS built to challenge a party of adventurers, and thus is going to be difficult to solo. Yes, some power builds can do it, but that is, frankly a losing effort to balance around. No matter how difficult something is, someone will find out how to crush it with little risk by the right combination of build and consumables. The server tries to provide a challenging, enjoyable PvE experience to encourage folks to group up and have some fun roleplaying their way through content.

I would be SHOCKED if anyone can say that the majority of content is impossible, or even difficult with a party of 3 or more players within +1 of their groups CR. Simply put, D&D is not meant to be balanced around PvP or solo adventures. A good DM can certainly take a buddy through a solo adventure if he/she specifically balances the challlenges to that characters strengths, but if you consider store bought modules, that is essentially what PvE content is. Dungeons CR Ratings are basically centered around assuming a semi-balanced D&D type party. Thus Evasion is not required on every character if you have a rogue to disarm traps and a cleric to heal. The Wizard doesn't need HiPS or summons or running around collecting spawns to throw in to AoE cloud spells if he has a tank protecting him so they can focus on buffing the party or throwing the occasional spell to turn the tide of a battle.

Thus the difficult level is really built around the idea of trying to capture some of the feeling of sitting down with buddies and playing PnP. Impossible to replicate over this medium, but sometimes it's still good enough...Often it's a perfect standin with the right group of people to enjoy it with.

Again, I would like to stress this is all my opinion on how server balance works based on experience as a player. Please don't start spouting how awful this is as a general server rule, cuz it isn't a server rule. (feel free to spout that you disagree with my opinion, of course...I just want to be very clear this has nothing to do with Server / Admin mandate).

[Hoihe]

I very much disagree that it caters to casters.

Things have too high saves and HP and spawn too spread out for casters to make a dent. Fighters can just wail at things and they die and keep wailing forever.


As for party play...


Party play is dominated by a powerbuild who right clicks things and deletes them while you hope to roll 15 to land a hit to deal 26 damage 2 times a round. Or cast a spell that deals 50-90 dmg that you cannot recast, or cast a SoD that gets resisted. Can't debuff either, because by the time you cast it, the entire enemy group is dead.

[Calodan]

For me I think the biggest problem is how you attain gear and the level it is to hand in hand with not one available way to craft custom gear that helps to boost the areas you decided to subpar a bit. The combination of tough monsters with high HP and AB along with balance to that of OP casters since they made offensive spells here more powerful has made playing anything without magic a suicide mission. I love love love melee fighters. This place really ruined that for me. I have melee fighters now but it took me years to put gear together to make them and not get fed up and rage quit. I also have sneaks I am leveling and they are a pain in the arse with gear and being made to be a high DPS sneak not a RP sneak. I can only imagine your frustrations. Couple that with the complete lack of DMs using skill rolls enough to determine your power in events and bet you get more frustrated. I am finding that taking skills in lore and the RP skills is rather wasteful here. This is not a knock on the DMs the way the engine works with this and the way VIDEO GAMERS are contribute to this a lot.

[aaron22]

i think the problem is not the content or the builders. i think we should have a better LFG system. its not that easy for everyone to just go up and start RP with just anyone. there are some people out here that are friends with many, but that i feel is a minority. i have been here for a year and i dont have many connections (self-imposed to an extent admitted).

this is a RP server, but its different to RP with strangers than buddies at a table. especially if your not that good at RP or new(ish) to the server.

just my thoughts....

maybe an OOC. group building helper would be nice. would also be nice to have dungeons that REQUIRED groups. we have a few and those are clever.

[Mork]

Have you considered hiring a guide? Cause I've heard about that one group ...

[Young Werther]

I also have sneaks I am leveling and they are a pain in the arse with gear and being made to be a high DPS sneak not a RP sneak.

Yes, I started on the server with my half-elf rogue with 16 base charisma. I've had a respected DM say my build wasn't very smart after my 2nd not-free rcr but it didn't matter to me then because all I really did was RP shenanigans. But after the free RCRs and getting a hang of the server (and watching power builds floor everything) I finally made a build that works. Ditch HiPS since she's not a tricked out halfling and get 50 ac/ epic dodge and just front line. Still have a pretty pointless mechanic wise 16 base charisma so it's a RP build lol. Though relying on feint isn't that great either. Suffice to say I made choices to increase mechanical power and it made me happier. I still rely on party/consumables to protect from spells. (rogue saves, uhg)


I think casters are the best though. I watched a teifling palemaster touch the frost giant king with the touch of death feat and kill it when it had next to full HP.

[Calodan]

I think casters are the best though. I watched a teifling palemaster touch the frost giant king with the touch of death feat and kill it when it had next to full HP.

What you witnessed was the power of the dark side of the force. It is the cookies they serve. I am sure of it!

[chad878262]

Casters are great 'Boss Killers' but so are Paladin/Divine Champions with Great Smiting and sky high Charisma... The rest of the time they are not so fun (as Hoihe pointed out). It is one thing to be able to one-shot a boss and does have a certain cool factor, but the players that can do that have a heck of a time leveling and would likely argue (correctly in my opinion) that if you give up staying power and 'grinding ability' you should get something in return. Great addition to a party, "You guys get me there, I'll slay the BBEG!" but not necessarily a great solo character.

Rogue's are tough, but it is really tricky to balance them because when they shine, they shine very brightly. However, at some point before I joined the server I understand that sneaks were OP in PvE and PvP which lead to a lot of environmental mechanics that dims most sneak attack builds in to utter darkness. That said some of these changes have been reversed such as area stealth / spotter mechanics. Their are some very strong combinations that can make for deadly sneak builds, but again, in a party any rogue build should be welcome to handle locks and traps while acting as a 'striker' to unload decent damage on those mobs/bosses that are not crit immune.

[Mallore]

The reason the server feels caster friendly is the tool box.

In any given situation there is a spell to deal with x while other classes feel lacking. A minor example is DR. There a few varieties of DR and non caster classs have to carry numerous weapons to be prepared for each, which can become taxing on a str 10 character (try carrying for or five weapons. And treasure you find!). While in this same example the Casters of the server have a weightless supply of options to get through each dr they encounter.

This issue is but one of dozens that make Casters feel better.

We could look at how spells stack with items. While they do not stack on stats they do stack on skills which shouldn't be allowed in my view. Due to this stacking a character with a spell will always be a better hider or spotter or anything else for that matter then a mundane. This creates a need to have spells in rp too and not just pve. This doesn't even take into the account of spamming things like truesight and see invis. Yes people can use wands to get this same affect but those come at a cost so in the end just be a caster to save gold.


There are dozenes more of examples to this as well.

When we look at our pvp rules they do favor the caster. A caster can sit and refresh all their buffs endlessly but if you where to find them in a rare window between buffs, the role play rules forced on the melee of the server mean the caster player is fully aware of the doom that awaits and can rebuff. Numerous times I've had caster opponents teleport away only to return fully buffed. I see it as a win because they spent a lot of gold but it's still cheating in my mind too, atleast in role play. I would enjoy either A. Teleport is set to always so you know they are teleporting. Or B your de buffer asfter arriving and need to rebuff. I'm not really sure why wards remain through teleport anyways.

This does not even go into Saves and imbalances. You either have the saves or you don't and the equipment that adds to save does not help in the slightest. Math proves this to anyone who says other wise.


I suppose in the end it is not any one major issue. There is no single large thing that makes this server feel it caters to Casters but instead a bunch of little things. Numerous little things and that all can add up leaving a disappointment if you play anything mundane.

One last note. When was the last prc or class that came out here that didn't have a spell book?

[Steve]

BGTSCC has a learning curve. I personally think it is a good one—it challenges the Player to be creative.

But I also must say I would prefer a learning curve that was more "in-character," and less about how much you know about numbers. Numbers annoy me, so I learn about them. But I would rather enjoy the poetry of the Game, and be able to succeed far beyond the norm with creative Role-play.

But the latter is simply not the paradigm. It is far more enjoyable, but you must trade being creative for experiencing great difficulty.

That said, there are plenty of Players out there that just simply don't care. They'll lolz their way through the Game with a FS or a Bard or a dwarf sorcerer or a Earth Genasi rogue. They are the ones probably having the most fun.

I like to think that Valefort and I have different philosophies, but also share some deep commonalities, when it comes to both mechanics and role-play. I mention this because you pull on our discussion in your quotes.

The Difficulty Level really depends on your goals, both as a Player, and maybe what your Character wishes to be. If you want to be decked out in the best of the best and be uber powerful, then, you have to play that game. If you care little for the cream of the crop, then you will, over time, eventually acquire all the things you could possibly want.

Now, I have to add...if you build a Build that is not considered in relation to the specific BGTSCC environment, then yes, you will suffer! A stupid analogy would be practicing swimming in order to go play baseball. Sure, you'll be fit...but you won't be trained specifically to read a pitch and hit a home run.

I will end with saying that if you are clear on your goals as a Player, and clear on your Character's goals, if you share those with the Community, your bound to receive a pretty decent build that will perform well in the environment, AND make you happy as a Player with the RP you wish to enact.

[chad878262]

Teleporting away is leaving the area and thus counts as a PvP 'loss' and that player is not supposed to interact with you or come back to the map for 24 hours. Thus returning fully buffed is a breach of PvP rules. If caster doesn't want to pvp without buffing to invulnerability then they should take the PvP out, not cheat by teleporting away and then returning fully buffed to blast the one who dared cross them to smitherines.

That said, why they need to teleport away to buff? Why not ethereal jaunt or just hit you with a bigby or something... Seems odd.

[SBlack]

Low levels are an lolfest if you don't twink, you are going to die due to bad rolls. Whoops critted for 20+, and game over for most level 3s.


Otherwise once geared, not challenging at all until about epic level. Then if you have a bad build things become very hard. Breteas for those who remember him, played a bard/sorc with full caster level sorcerer who never actually used any sorc powers and got to level 30. But he did use a lot of umd from stuff he bought from shops with funds gained by previous toons.

Myself I played an 8 str, 8 dex, 8 con bard, so basically useless in combat to 21 before I got bored because song of requiem is OP IMO and no longer really a challenge. Just tedious leveling ahead of me. It was a dicey situation even at level 20 to challenge the orc king without baring heal pots. Something a strongly built character level 9 or 10 can do solo.