Tips for a pair of Dwarven Brothers.

[Stormforge1]

Hey, new to the game and this PW in general. Have been here for about 2 weeks. Was interested in any tips or things I should be looking to add for mechanics and RP reasons for my pair of Dwarven brother's, Durrin and Banak Stormforge. Classes, skills, etc. Have a few classes picked out for each already though I am still pretty clueless when it comes to some of the finer mechanics of this game. Not really looking to power build, but more RP build. I would still like to be effective and useful to a group though. In their current state I was able to solo the Hilltop ruins all the way to the FAI with both at ch level 6 (Durrin-Rogue 3/Fighter 3, Banak-Fighter 4/Barbarian 1/Battlerager 1). Not sure if that is decent or not. Either way I have had fun with or without a group so far. And yes I have a dwarven fetish.

They are from Sundabar in the Silver Marches. both are Neutral Good and quick to laugh at even the lamest jokes.


Durrin Stormforge - Dwarven Scout

Str-14, Dex-16, Con-16, Int-14, Wis-12, Cha-6

Thinking Rogue 21/ Fighter 4/Tempest 5

Two-Weapon Fighting/Weapon Finesse. Recommended skills and feats would be helpful. Methodical, take my time, and find/disarm/open enemies, traps, and chests. Most likely will be staying away from sleight of hand. Follower of Marthammor Duin Not looking to pick pockets. I be good.



Banak Stormforge - Dwarven Battlerager

Str-18, Dex-14, Con-16, Int-10, Wis-10, Cha-6

Thinking Fighter 4/Barbarian 21/Battlerager 5

Two-handed Weapons. Same as above for recommended skills/feats. All about rushing through and slaughtering everything. Impatient standing around talking. Clangeddin Silverbeard guides me hand slaughtering evil, and I enjoys it, BWAHAHAHAHA!


Basically looking for tips on what skills/feats/other classes I should take or look into.

[aaron22]

for your battlerager i think Barb20/BR5/FB5 would be great. utilizing rages and EIPA. move your str to 18 and con to 18 initially grab WW at barb 1 take your con to 21 and str to 21 to get EDR. get ice troll and remember that you get bonus feats at 10 and 20. get yourself KD. and can take Epic rage at level 30. rager and FB have nice synergy.

the rogue build would be better built by chad as he is much more expert at building those. rogue build will have some frustrations if it cannot HiPS. just so you know. its playable but will have its moments.

[Stormforge1]

Ok, yeah. I saw Frenzied Berserker mentioned in another thread and have started reading up on it.

For the rogue I have a hard time picturing a dwarf as a Shadowdancer. I do see the appeal though for sneak attacks. Was curious about feint and pommel strike and if they could allow me to get sneak attacks in. Problem I see with Feint is the low Charisma and resulting -2 to Bluff penalty. Could take 2 points from Wisdom or Constitution to bring it to 8 for only a -1.

[aaron22]

its not the SA's that you will be missing. but if the rogue gets aggro it will die. no matter what your rager does the mobs will target the rogue and take it out. it can use UMD to help mitigate, but then mobs will dispell. im not saying you need SD levels but you should know it might be frustrating at times.

[chad878262]

However, a Dwarf Assassin....

Personally I have always loved the Fighter/Thief mixture so have theory crafted a lot of different builds. There may be some improvements coming to Hide in the Shadows which would make a R21 semi-viable without HiPS, and would synergize well with a Dwarf going around in caverns and such. That said, HiPS is still the best way to be survivable as a Rogue build. Since you are going for the Fighter/Thief Dwarven Scout idea here are a couple ideas:

R21/SD3/CS6 - SD grants Darkvision which opens up Cavestalker. Ranger abilities in natural caverns/underdark environments which would fit a Dwarven Scout pretty well. No Rogue levels though so probably not what you're looking for.

R16/A8/WoD(or AK) 6 - Warrior of Darkness or Anointed Knight can support the 'fighter' side of your build and will help you get a bit higher Will Saves. Only requirement being Iron Will is made up for by free Blindfight, Toughness and Dash(WoD only, Anointed Knight gets Alertness) - all three of which can be difficult to fit in to a sneak attack build, but are all beneficial. This will get all the Rogue goodies (Epic Precision, Expose Weakness, PTWF, Epic Dodge) with Assassin Death Attack and a BAB of 24 which is a couple points higher than 'standard' rogue builds.

R16/A8/NWN3/IB3 - 14d6 sneak dice, BAB24, Feint or HiPS for sneak attacks, up to +3 AC from INT, 10% movement increase. All good stuff.

R10/A8/F12 - If you want more Fighter/less Rogue this gets you BAB25 (no 6th attack) and all the fighter feats for really high attack bonus, and damage bonus. Does not get Epic Dodge and only had 9d6 sneak dice, will have loads of feats.

R17/SD3/WoD10 - Much better saves from WoD10 and all the good rogue feats.

R12/SD4/F4/WoD10 - Similar to other heavy high BAB class builds, but by gettin 14 levels in high BAB classes and following the 'rule of 4' on Rogue and SD you end up at BAB 26 for a 6th attack (12 APR with PTWF). However, you lose way too much and it is not worth it in my opinion (Epic Dodge).

If you really do not want to get HiPS you will not be able to consistently land sneak attacks in melee, and thus you should think about other options, here are some:

Get Shield Bash, Agile Shield Fighter and Shield Slam. This allows you to build your Dwarf with ~14 DEX (Mithral Chain Mail) and max STR. You get your sneak attacks by landing Shield Slam. Works well with the builds including Fighter, WoD, and other high BAB classes that don't advance sneak dice. Idea being when you aren't landing sneak dice you are still a relatively efficient front line fighter.

Get the feat Blinding Strike. This will allow you to attempt to blind an enemy about once every 10 rounds, but read up on the mechanics to make sure your build will get a good enough DC to make it worth while.

Use a Wand or potions of Invisibility (this will get expensive!)

Build for Feint - You will be disappointed in all, but a few rare areas where it actually works decently. Most of the time it will never land. When it does it's awesome, but it's so rare as to be irrelevant.

As to your Barbarian build it is pretty tough to mess up so long as you get 20 levels of Barbarian, 21 STR And 21 CON as Aaron stated.

[Stormforge1]

Are disable device and lock picking even essential? Seems at lower levels you can definitely do without since I started the Battlerager as my second character.

Thanks for the replies. Lots to think on. Especially since I was unaware that Assassin no longer has the alignment requirement.

[aaron22]

to me, a ranger is more of a scout than a rogue, Rgr21/Sin9 is a beast if it can fit your RP. Int and dex should give you lots of room to fill your RP needs. this build though gets Hips pretty late but better late than never. CL25 is tolerable, but this doesnt take into account the -5 cl on your levels around 17-25 where it will be tougher.

[Stormforge1]

to me, a ranger is more of a scout than a rogue, Rgr21/Sin9 is a beast if it can fit your RP. Int and dex should give you lots of room to fill your RP needs. this build though gets Hips pretty late but better late than never. CL25 is tolerable, but this doesnt take into account the -5 cl on your levels around 17-25 where it will be tougher.

I agree for the most part. My hang-up on it is when I do spot a trap while scouting ahead, magical or otherwise, I would like to be able to remove it from the party's path. Especially later on as they get more deadly.

Hmmm...Dwarf already has darkvision. Ranger 21/Rogue 3/Cavestalker 6 might just work. No HiPs indoors, but in caves and outside it would work. With Able Learner to somewhat keep up on rogue skills.

Thank you both for your help.

[aaron22]

sin gives access to disable device and open lock. you can take that as soon as level 6. pour points into it after that to catch up with able learner feat. you will need to figure out the RP behind the sin any way can blend that into the new skill it is learning.

[chad878262]

Yeah but without Rogue you can't disable traps with a DC greater than 20, so it quickly becomes useless to have disable device if you don't have rogue (or phantom) levels.

[aaron22]

ahh yes.. that is the truth.

[Stormforge1]

Use potions or a wands indoors if needed. Divine Seeker gives Trapfinding at 3, some Will save, and no xp penalty.

Ranger21/CS4/DS5 No Gaseous Form, but I do get Divine Perseverance and +2d6 SA.

[aaron22]

i am unsure if the SA dice stack with the sin. prolly do, but not positive.

[Stormforge1]

Would have to wait until level 23 to get HiPs though.

[chad878262]

Use potions or a wands indoors if needed. Divine Seeker gives Trapfinding at 3, some Will save, and no xp penalty.

Ranger21/CS4/DS5 No Gaseous Form, but I do get Divine Perseverance and +2d6 SA.

Would have to wait until level 23 to get HiPs though.

You're a Ranger, so HiPS is not nearly as important... As to the build though, Divine Perseverance is crap and Charisma is your dump stat... Thus if it is just about handling traps, you should stop Divine Seeker at 3. Something like R24/CS3/DS3 would be far better. Get's CL30 with Practiced Spell Caster, +2 AC from Protective Ward and a bonus feat at R23. I would recommend going R21/CS3/DS3/NWN3, but due to 3b20 rule you would get Ranger 21 at level 30 and thus couldn't pick up Bane of enemies. It's still an option since you gain the 2d6 damage when you can use HiPS from Bodyguard3 along with 10% movement speed boost, but a Ranger 21+ w/out BoE just seems like sacrilege.