Planar binding suggestions.

[ZestyDragon]

Had to try out the new system of course and it is a lot of fun. Though i do have a couple of suggestions.

First suggestion - a few more gem options would go a long way. I have never had a Blue diamond but i have seen one sell for a hundred thousand before they did anything. At the moment its going to be something that appears maybe once a year and only for someone with epic items to trade. Then you take into the account you have to find a book, Luck out and get a name and get one of the epic names. It seems a bit like a end of character career thing if you grind.

Maybe three gems each of equal rarity?.
Lesser Binding - Diamond, Ametrine, Emerald.
Greater Binding - Canary Diamond, Star Sapphire, Beljuril.
Epic binding - Blue Diamond, Kings Tears, Rouge stones.

Second suggestion - The focus needs either an option to unbind or a means of trading. It is expensive enough for wizards to RcR without adding in the cost of Blue, Canary and normal Diamonds.

Lastly they don't seem to get the HD increase from the conjurations feats. Making as far as i have seen, the normally summoned ones stronger.

[Planehopper]

How many people have found names so far? I haven't been around much but haven't caught wind of any yet.

[Nachti]

Ye I know. I think i might have fixed their scaling with next update. The other is dudes thing

[Nemni]

Would it be possible to change it so that other speech skills could also be used in the negotiation? Like intimidate and bluff, instead of just diplomacy. Forcing a specific skill for this great system seems a bit limited.

Oh and I agree with the ZestyDragon's suggestions too.

[Flights of Fantasy]

I don't think attempting to bluff or intimidate an outer being would be very successful (or wise). Bluffing might work on a temporary basis, but there would be harsh repercussions essentially. As for intimidation, well, just picture a mere mortal attempting to intimidate a balor. If you're going to go that route, raw power is the only thing that would work as empty threats would be meaningless.

[Okan]

Well, to be honest, in its original design, it was never about diplomacy. It was a general cha check. Although I don't get why intimidation or wouldn't work. Considering we are trying to make the interaction works more like in the PNP, It doesn't matter what you are facing is a balor or imp as long as you are holding the ropes.

It's a binding spell which you can use to permanently eliminate the bound outsider. If we are talking about fiends, in this case, they don't give a damn about each other so almost anytime you don't need to fear the outsider coming back from death. Even you suspect that is a possibility, there are other measures that make a being harder to resurrect. You can even trap the soul to use it to your liking.

With options like these, I cannot see why you can't intimidate a selfish fiend, no matter its position. Or even if you can manage to do things you intimidate with you can always lie about that you can -here comes the bluff- although knowing fiends that would probably backfire

I think certain deals should require different skill checks. A chaotic evil diabolist should not be able to use diplomacy against a Deva, that kind of deal can only be done under coercion.

Just my two cents.

[Flights of Fantasy]

I was under the impression that an outsider can't die on any prime material plane. Dying on the prime just forces them back to their home plane and bars them entry from the prime for a certain amount of time. The only way to permanently kill an outsider is to kill them on their home plane. Of course, I'm no FR/DnD lore expert. I'm just recalling details from some of the novels I've read.

[ZestyDragon]

Keep in mind that the outsider does not have to answer your call. Both Bluff and Intimidate put the target's default attitude one step down, E.G unfriendly becomes hostile once concluded. So even if you can bluff of intimidate an outsider they would never answer the call again, or would attempt to kill you.

Daimondheart is correct, you cannot permanently kill an outsider on the prime plane. They have nothing to fear from you hence the hefty gold bribe. Not to mention some also have aura of courage or other fear immunity feats rendering them immune to intimidate. bluff on the other hand means you are lying and not upholding your end of the deal, causing the contract to become null and void. That's not to say you cannot bluff or intimidate an outsider, just that it would not get you the contract that you need.

Diplomacy on the other hand is about working out a mutually beneficial deal. Keep in mind you are trying to convince a being that sees you as nothing but a spec, that you are worth working for. So kiss that ass and sponsor that blood war.

[Flights of Fantasy]

On that note, perhaps rather than allow other negotiation skills, you can give the option of having the outsider require a heftier fee. Makes sense right? If your character sucks at negotiation, you can still form a contract but expect to pay a whole lot more. Although, this should also depend on the type of outsider you're dealing with. I can't imagine a Deva being swayed by the size of your wallet.

[Zanniej]

Well, you could use bluff to convince them that what you're asking them to do is serving a purpose they support. Though depending on the result of that, you might end up with a hostile summon as sound as he/she/it is unbound...

And intimidate them with pain they'll feel. I mean, no matter what plane you're on, even if you can't die, some things will still hurt, right? Would be fun to intimidate a lowly imp into your service because of the pain you'll give him if he doesn't do your bidding. He is bound in a summoning circle after all.

[dedude]

First suggestion - a few more gem options would go a long way.

Hidden: show

I have never had a Blue diamond but i have seen one sell for a hundred thousand before they did anything. At the moment its going to be something that appears maybe once a year and only for someone with epic items to trade. Then you take into the account you have to find a book, Luck out and get a name and get one of the epic names. It seems a bit like a end of character career thing if you grind.

Maybe three gems each of equal rarity?.
Lesser Binding - Diamond, Ametrine, Emerald.
Greater Binding - Canary Diamond, Star Sapphire, Beljuril.
Epic binding - Blue Diamond, Kings Tears, Rouge stones.

I'm going to give this new system a bit more time and allow for more feedback before I change anything about the gems. Chasing down the right rare gem that you need is part of the challenge. We will revisit this at a later time to consider if the gems are too rare.

Second suggestion - The focus needs either an option to unbind or a means of trading. It is expensive enough for wizards to RcR without adding in the cost of Blue, Canary and normal Diamonds.

I don't see this happening.

[Okan]

Keep in mind that the outsider does not have to answer your call. Both Bluff and Intimidate put the target's default attitude one step down, E.G unfriendly becomes hostile once concluded. So even if you can bluff of intimidate an outsider they would never answer the call again, or would attempt to kill you.

Outsider gets a will save but he cants just simply choose to not come if he fails he has to. I am not sure how many times I need to emphasize on this but, this is not planar ally, this is planar binding. You forcefully call them into a playing field where you make the rules for.

And outsiders can be killed outside of their plane, if we are talking about 3rd edition dnd which our whole spell system is based on, but we might not be doing that so consider below if we do.

Quoting regarding for spells with calling subschool; "Creatures who are called actually die when they are killed; they do not disappear and reform, as do those brought by a summoning spell (see below). "

Regardless, being able to kill them is not the only thing you can do to coerce creatures in to your bidding, against many good creatures you can hold hostages for example. Or for evil creatures, you can extract information out of them forcefully which then they will beg you to not kill them to send them back to their plane if that's what happens when they die. And these are just a couple things that you can do generally, there would be plenty entity specific details that can be used against, which anyone who plans to do a bidding would take advantage of.

Again Planar Binding is not necessarily "You scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" type of deal. It can be,if you want to be, but it doesn't have to be. In most cases, it is "You do what I ask you to do within reason or else. If you do not make trouble for me, maybe just maybe I can scratch your back as well."

[ZestyDragon]

Second suggestion - The focus needs either an option to unbind or a means of trading. It is expensive enough for wizards to RcR without adding in the cost of Blue, Canary and normal Diamonds.

I don't see this happening.

Why not?. I can't see any real reason why you shouldn't be able to unbind a gem. People need a means of rebuilding without being out hundreds of thousands of gold. Or losing a gem forever due to a typo.

[dedude]

First a few lore corrections:

Powerful outsiders can ignore your spell. A bound outsider that is capable of planar travel can escape your binding at any time, unless you cast dimensional anchor on it. The outsider can escape your binding, so it is dangerous to keep it bound for too long. Get an agreement for its services or let it go.

Planar beings can be killed on the prime, or any other plane. This obviously makes it harder to agree on a dangerous deal, and the outsider is not going to go to his death for you. Treat your RP accordingly, it's poor RP to just let a called being die. They control their own actions and would most likely never go to their deaths for you, nor agree to a service that includes their death. The exception being the Gate spell where the caster actually controls the called being (in the version of the gate spell we use). In this case your alignment may dictate how you treat the outsider.

Then a mechanical explanation:
You don't have to pass the diplomacy check to convince the being to be bound to you. How well you do in the check will determine the gp price that the being requires for its services.

[dedude]

Or losing a gem forever due to a typo.

You should be able to change the name as long as you haven't actually bound a being to the gem. If you can't that is a bug.

I can't see any real reason why you shouldn't be able to unbind a gem.

If you know two names but only have one rare gem. Bind one and try it out, unbind, then bind the other. The focus is not really meant as an actual item, but rather a representation of the deal you have with a certain being. The gem is consumed in the binding process.