Could use some help with my Dwarf SS

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Flights of Fantasy
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Could use some help with my Dwarf SS

Unread post by Flights of Fantasy »

I've been pouring over this build for a while now and it just doesn't feel like it's reaching its full potential. The main problem lies in three parts: the Dwarf, the Spirit Shaman, and the spells.

Dwarves are made to be better fighters than spell casters thanks to the +2 Con. I settled on the gold dwarf because I like their haughty history and it's easy for them to be charismatic since their negative modifier is in Dex instead of Cha. Important because I want this guy to be a leader, SS getting diplomacy, and Cha helps their DCs.

This unfortunately leads to the problem SS & FS share: needing two mind stats to effectively cast all their spells. I've settled on starting with 15 Wis with an additional point from leveling up and wearing a +3 Wis Amulet to get access to level 9 spells. The rest of my level up points will go into Cha which starts at 14. So this is how his starting attributes are looking:
STR 14
DEX 12
CON 10
INT 14
WIS 15
CHA 14
I'm sure I don't have to explain the INT (Combat Expertise), but I'm not able to make use of the Con bonus at all. I would love to have that at 16, but there so much spread among the mind attributes. I really wish SS's only had to use Cha like Sorcerers, then I'd dump Wis entirely. (I envision him being more charismatic than wise.) I've also thought of dumping Int because the build doesn't require a lot of skills, but combat expertise is a given.

Then spells become the last issue. The druid spell list has a great selection of spells for buffing (especially animal companions) but the Telthor companion doesn't really fit how I want to role play him. Rather than making bargains with animal spirits, this guy bargains with his ancestors and deceased kinsman for his spells. I picture him being surrounded by the spectral entities of hundreds of dwarves and using their blessings to lead his allies to victory. "The blood of the dwarf is the blood of the stones!"

So the spells I have been picking out for him shy away from the plants and creatures and more towards buffs that can work on everyone, fire, and the earth: Bull's Strength, Bear's Endurance, Flame Weapon, Firestorm, & Bombardment. I've also been loading him up with almost all the healing spells. I want this guy to be in the thick of the fray, hewing his foes apart while throwing out healing spells to keep his party going even as things turn to hell. And, until when and if Summon Spirits is added, I have him using Summon Creature to call in Earth Elementals to back him up.

The problem is having high Cha doesn't seem to help much. I find most of my spells are buffs with only a handful of attack spells on the higher levels. They deal a fair bit of damage, but all of them have reflex saves that aren't difficult to succeed on. I'm not sure if it's just the attack spells available in the Druid spell list or my Dwarf's Cha is just too low to make them effectively hard to resist. And the low AB is really bugging me. I find myself tempted to forget the attack spells, go full on buffer/healer, and pump STR to improve his melee. I want his starting CHA to stay at 14, though

My class split as I aim towards 30 is currently 20 Spirit Shaman / 4 Thaumaturge / 6 Hierophant. I actually wanted to go 20 SS/6 Hier, but it's impossible to do with Shamans since they can't effectively study Religion without cross classing. The four levels of Thaumaturge solve that and also lead to stronger Earth Elementals, but it comes at the cost of a lower BAB. I've also been thinking of abandoning Hierophant. I wanted to get him this PrC because it can add 3 caster levels with the bonus feats, but I'm not sure if it's worth it due to the lack of suitable attack spells. I've pondered taking a few levels of Hospitaler with practiced spell crafter to improve his healing, improve BAB, & I won't have to waste feats on Medium Armor Proficiency. I'm set on having 20 levels of Spirit Shaman because I want him to have all the Spirit Shaman feats.

Now that I've explained the situation as best as I could, does anyone have any suggestions? Am I putting to much stock in Combat Expertise and should dump the Int? Are there attack spells I'm missing that wouldn't interfere with my dwarven spirit concept?
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Rhifox
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Re: Could use some help with my Dwarf SS

Unread post by Rhifox »

If you're going to be focusing on physical combat, ignore Charisma. You do not need Charisma and DCs at all as a buffing, meleeing shaman. I barely ever used spells that needed DCs, or offensive spells, because they're just not that effective in the NWN2 environment. Now you do want him to be a leader, yeah, but you don't need to put too much into Cha for that if you're putting ranks into Diplomacy (attributes being natural talent, but skills are actual training towards a specific task). You may still want 12 or 14 for the RP, but your points while leveling should all go towards your physical attributes instead (aside from the one to get 16 Wis). Personally, I only had 10 Cha on my shaman and never found myself missing it.

Personally, I found that multiclassing as a shaman rarely added any benefits. Hier buffs your spellcasting, which you're not doing much of as a melee shaman. Caster levels won't matter, because most of your spells don't even reach 30 before maxing out (Burst of Glacial Cold is the only spell you have that actually takes advantage of 30+ CL, aside from buff duration/dispel resistance). Thaum buffs your summons, but you lack things like GHeroism (I thought GFang didn't work on it either, but apparently I was wrong. So a summon build could work if you want to focus on it). Shaman 30 is generally stronger in my experience, or Shaman with a few levels in a High BAB class for its early benefits (like a few levels of fighter for all proficiencies, or monk for the Wis to AC. Hospitaler could work too).
Last edited by Rhifox on Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:34 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Nemni
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Re: Could use some help with my Dwarf SS

Unread post by Nemni »

You can take Hirophant with points in lore nature instead.

The idea of tossing offensive spells and smacking things in melee is rather cool, but very hard to pull off. Especially as a shaman as you would then depend on 3 stats (str, wis, cha). You can still do it, but if you want to be really effective you should focus on either casting or bashing. Keep ICE if you decide on the caster route, drop it otherwise (since shamans don't have any AB buffs).

Don't worry about con, it's not an important stat for shamans. You already have high fortitude and your spellbook is great for defensive buffs and healing. 14 int is better since you want to make use of another thing shamans are good at, which is skills. But str or cha would be better still.
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Re: Could use some help with my Dwarf SS

Unread post by Nemni »

GFang and JTooth will not work on elementals.
I don't think that's true. I seem to remember buffing elementals as a shaman without problems.
I think a shaman with epic spell focus conjuration and Thaumaturgist could be a pretty great summoner, though probably still not as good as a mage. But you also have several great offensive conjuration spells to cast, probably more than the mage.
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Re: Could use some help with my Dwarf SS

Unread post by Nyeleni »

You aren't as good a buffer as a mage. But then you can go into melee with a shaman too. I wouldn't recommend that with the hp of a mage.
And if you push your Telthor Companion with Natural Bond and Epic Animal Companion, that can be decent too. Of course only as support.
Rhifox wrote:SNIP (GFang and JTooth will not work on elementals. SNIP.
Actually one of the spells works on elementals. Greater Magic Fang works. Only Jagged Tooth doesn't but that is the lesser buff anyways.
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Re: Could use some help with my Dwarf SS

Unread post by Rhifox »

Nemni wrote:I don't think that's true. I seem to remember buffing elementals as a shaman without problems.
Nyeleni wrote:Greater Magic Fang works.
Has it been changed recently? Because Fang never worked on them for me. It used to be restricted just to animals, which elementals are not. It was one of the things that made me shift away from a summoning build on my shaman.

That being said, with the updates to spell focuses, a summoning build might actually be pretty nice now. Especially with the ability to summon your pet to you so that doors don't ruin your day.
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Re: Could use some help with my Dwarf SS

Unread post by Nyeleni »

It has worked for years. You just get a message for the jagged tooth that it doesnt work. Might be you thought both spells gave the same message.
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Re: Could use some help with my Dwarf SS

Unread post by Rhifox »

It doesn't work on elementals in vanilla NWN2 (just double checked, gives the 'Invalid Target' message with Fang). I could have sworn BG didn't include the change that allows it to work on elementals, but maybe I misremember. Either way, if it works here then that's great and I take back what I said above.
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Re: Could use some help with my Dwarf SS

Unread post by Flights of Fantasy »

Thanks for all the great advice. I had no idea Hierophant could use nature instead of religion. It doesn't mention it in the PrC description. That makes things a lot easier. I think I will go the buffer/healer route because that strikes me as being more true to my character. (Although I'm pretty sure Ice Storm also benefits from a +30 caster level). I think I'll still go for 4 levels of Hierophant so I can get scribe rune, an ability that's available to Dwarven Runesmiths. Plus the staff might make it so that Hierophant also progresses chastise spirit. Then I'll either get Tethlor companion and animal progression with Hierophant, or forget Tethlor and augment his healing. A companion would be nice but I just wish I could choose a dwarf spirit, an earth elemental, or at least a badger over the wolf.

I think I'll drop Thaumaturge and just pick up the Augment Summoning feat. Though auto extend on Summons is very tempting, I don't want to sacrifice his BAB. I'll still get spell focus conjuration to boost the power of his earth elemental. I'll drop ICP as suggested and I think maybe two or more INT. The main skills I'm after are Concentration, Diplomacy, Spellcraft, and Survival with the rest of the points being spread between Lore Nature (Just to get Hierophant) and one or two other lore skills. I'll ignore Con as suggested and pump everything leftover into his STR to augment his AB and melee Damage. Then maybe grab some conjuration attack spells for emergencies.

How does that sound?
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Re: Could use some help with my Dwarf SS

Unread post by Flights of Fantasy »

Oh, I almost forgot to ask about metamagic feats. I was taking extend because it seems to be a given, but are any of the others worth it? Maybe silent and the three auto silents at epic?
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Re: Could use some help with my Dwarf SS

Unread post by Nyeleni »

Why would you need silent and auto silent? Against silence? It almost doesn't happen. I think you could use your epic feats better. But if it's a rp reason, go ahead. I'm intrigued. Maybe you play a mute shaman?
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Re: Could use some help with my Dwarf SS

Unread post by Flights of Fantasy »

Oh no, not mute. This guy will be hollering and hooting all over the place. I just saw that as being his only spell casting weakness since it's divine magic. I guess I'll just go with Epic Conjuration & Epic Gate in the hopes there might be a dwarf outsider at some point. That'd work well.

I have been pondering fey heritage though but purely for fey skin to add to his cold iron resistance. Problem is I didn't really picture him as a fey dwarf and I have a hard time picturing a fey and dwarf coming together. It sounds too snow flakey. Then there's all the feats to grab. I wouldn't even have considered it if One with the Spirits didn't grant cold iron DR. Makes me wish there was a similar feat that focused on spirits over fey.
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Re: Could use some help with my Dwarf SS

Unread post by Nyeleni »

Feys are always snowflakey. A dwarf might even bring some diversity into it. Elves don't have a monopoly on feys :).
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Re: Could use some help with my Dwarf SS

Unread post by Flights of Fantasy »

I'll ponder it as I wait for a reset. It'll be either fey heritage feats or dwarven axe feats to improve his melee.
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Re: Could use some help with my Dwarf SS

Unread post by izzul »

Daimondheart wrote:Thanks for all the great advice. I had no idea Hierophant could use nature instead of religion. It doesn't mention it in the PrC description. That makes things a lot easier. I think I will go the buffer/healer route because that strikes me as being more true to my character. (Although I'm pretty sure Ice Storm also benefits from a +30 caster level). I think I'll still go for 4 levels of Hierophant so I can get scribe rune, an ability that's available to Dwarven Runesmiths. Plus the staff might make it so that Hierophant also progresses chastise spirit. Then I'll either get Tethlor companion and animal progression with Hierophant, or forget Tethlor and augment his healing. A companion would be nice but I just wish I could choose a dwarf spirit, an earth elemental, or at least a badger over the wolf.

I think I'll drop Thaumaturge and just pick up the Augment Summoning feat. Though auto extend on Summons is very tempting, I don't want to sacrifice his BAB. I'll still get spell focus conjuration to boost the power of his earth elemental. I'll drop ICP as suggested and I think maybe two or more INT. The main skills I'm after are Concentration, Diplomacy, Spellcraft, and Survival with the rest of the points being spread between Lore Nature (Just to get Hierophant) and one or two other lore skills. I'll ignore Con as suggested and pump everything leftover into his STR to augment his AB and melee Damage. Then maybe grab some conjuration attack spells for emergencies.

How does that sound?
hi there, a question here. what does scribe rune do? is it same as scribe scrolls?
-if you scribe one spell per lvl to the rune, is it able to be cast once per day/rest?
-what will be the
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