Spell costs

[Calantyr]

In PnP (almost) all spells need reagents to cast. The absence of this mechanic in NWN is one of the factors that contributes to spell casters being so much better than martials, to the point that it's virtually impossible to build an efficient martial character that performs equally to a poorly-built cleric.

The hard solution is to make all spells require a variety of reagents, and then add those reagents as loot drops/chest treasure/store items throughout the world. This would be the most immersive solution, but it's a lot of work.

Another option is to abstract it and simply add a gold cost to all spells. The gold cost is explained as the spellcaster buying reagents with their gold the next time they head into town, without adding the monotony of actually finding the right items. Simplified mechanic. Each level of spell automatically subtracts from the gold in a characters inventory, and when they run out of gold they can no longer cast spells (with some exceptions).

Actual costs are something that would need testing, but I'd imagine something like:

Level 0 - Free
Level 1: 1 Gold per spell.
Level 2: 5 Gold per spell.
Level 3: 10 Gold per spell.
Level 4: 15 Gold per spell.
Level 5: 20 Gold per spell.
Level 6: 25 Gold per spell.
Level 7: 30 Gold per spell.
Level 8: 35 Gold per spell.
Level 9: 40 Gold per spell.
Epic Level: 50 Gold per spell.

Reserve feats can be cast without a gold cost, making them actually pretty useful.
Metamagic feats do not increase the gold cost of casting a spell at a higher level, making them even more useful.

There are already spells in the game that remove gold when they are cast, so I know that this is possible. Whether it's a good idea is another question, but I think it can only help RP.

[Asmodea]

I am just wondering where you are getting the Gold Cost from? It varies wildly by spell in PnP with most costing nothing (Few CP at best) and some costing thousands upon thousands. Just abstractly picking a gold amount per level seems.... abstract! And random. Most of the powerful spells that bring Wizards above and beyond Martial Characters actually have no gold cost associated with them in PnP as well.

Also 'nerfing' casting classes by making them cost gold does not seem a good way to approach 'Balance' either if that is the intent as then rich people don't care poor people suffer even more?

Those are my two first brush thoughts on the matter.

[ZestyDragon]

Adding spell components and the requirement to use them for spells that require more then 1gp?, Sure that sounds fun. Randomly losing gold per spell? pass. It adds nothing to the RP.

[BlueAce417]

From the title, I imagined you were referring to the below site:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm

I know this would be difficult to code because the current in-game spell system is probably hardwired into it.

[CrimsonMist]

Adding spell components and the requirement to use them for spells that require more then 1gp?, Sure that sounds fun. Randomly losing gold per spell? pass. It adds nothing to the RP.

Agreed, hard pass. D&D3.5 favours spellcasters at higher levels and that's the system we're playing under. Putting in arbitrary costs doesn't benefit anyone's story and doesn't make matters any easier for a Fighter30.

At any rate, if we're going beyond 'medium RP' to require spell component costs, why not include armour and weapon repair/breakage as well? No?

[Hoihe]

(do-me) no.

If we do this, make your so called "suffering" martial style characters get exhausted from swings.

You get to swing once at 50 dmg, 4 times at 40, 6 times at 30, 12 times at 20, 24 times at 10 damage before needing to rest. No items to restore this.

Please play a caster from level 1 without any twinking or help from OOC friends.

I dare you to do it. I did it for meleers and rogues and got to level 10-15, 30 on the no-magic rogue.

Meleers have it goddamned easy, and archer rogues have it the easiest. You literally click on things, deal 40 dmg/hit with high probability of all attacks landing. You get to do it infinite amount of times per day, and you get to keep your HP at maximum with healing clickies, vamp regen weapons, regen capes and heal kits (which you can carry hundreds of due to high strength. A caster can carry maybe 10-20 heal kits while still leaving space to loot.)

As a pure caster wizard? At the approrpriate CR, with approrpiate Cl, unless you literally metagame the map you are on and perform the very OOC action of running around in circles until you are being wailed on by 10 different enemies, fighting a single enemy will cost you at least 2 spells, maybe even 3 if their inflated saves or HP end up giving them 15 HP left over. Now, then you also try to loot and find 2 full plates. My 18/22 strength character laughed happily at even full plates in his inventory. My 10/14 strength wizard gets crippled by a fullplate.



Let me reitirate my opinion with a quote from the Expanse (drink up CK).

“Hell no,” Jim said when they were alone in the suite. “Absolutely no. No (do-me) way, no. There have got to be a billion different ways to say no, and I’d still have to cycle through them a couple times to really express the depth of no on this one. (EXPANSE SPOILERS) How is that anything but a massive load of let’s-not-do-that?”

[Necromantis]

Fully agree with what Hoihe said.

Having levelled the entire last year as a Wizard (not a gish), I can already tell you that I've spent an insane amount of gold not only on teleportation, but having to redo an entire spellbook upon RCR as well. While other people are waltzing off through Avernus like it's a daily chore, off to get their epic items, I hardly keep any money for myself unless I mindlessly grind for hours on end, which isn't what I'm here to do.

So yes, (do-me) no to spell reagents.

PS: Reserve feats will never be useful, as the saves are always too low, and/or they never even come close to the damage of martial classes, but that's another discussion.

[BlueAce417]

I actually took a re-look at Sigil - City of Doors and noticed they had a Psion class. This class works pretty much like a Sorcerer mixed with a Warlock? You can pick your spells much like sorcerer's leveling up, but when you cast spells they are tethered to this pool of energy called Psionic Energy. Lower leveled abilities cost lower amounts of Psi energy and raise appropriatly with higher leveled abilities. It gets a "metamagic" like set of abilities that also raise the Psi cost of an ability. It also gets a free ability much like eldritch blast or any of our reserve spells that deal a decent amount of damage for its free Psi cost.

What I'm saying is, implementing spell points just might be possible afterall. It would make many more casters much more versatile. It would allow just about anyone with a spellbook the ability to focus all of their "Mana" on a particular set of spells each rest. I'd imagine where would be a lot of casters who would love this if it were implemented.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

I haven't had the same struggle with my repeatedly RCR'd wizards.

F3/W27, SD3/W27, W30, Am/Asoc/Wiz. The only time I didn't play some sort of pseudotank was with the Asoc one. I may not kill everything in my path but I'm not often to die from it.

I only have two pieces of borrowed epic gear, the rest came from shops.

I've watched players with the right build play them the wrong way.

[Hoihe]

I haven't had the same struggle with my repeatedly RCR'd wizards.

F3/W27, SD3/W27, W30, Am/Asoc/Wiz. The only time I didn't play some sort of pseudotank was with the Asoc one. I may not kill everything in my path but I'm not often to die from it.

I only have two pieces of borrowed epic gear, the rest came from shops.

I've watched players with the right build play them the wrong way.

Tanking is useless if you never kill anything. Or kill 10 things then be forced to rest to kill the next 10 things.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

Tanking is useless if you never kill anything. Or kill 10 things then be forced to rest to kill the next 10 things.

I may not kill everything in my path

There's a difference.

[metaquad4]

Costs like this should only be in the game if there is a way for characters to make enough money to upkeep it without grinding. As it stands, if you don't grind, you won't make very much money (and in most cases, you will end up slowly losing money).

What is your intent with this? Because, this would be the result:

1) (-) Grinding to upkeep your gold for spells cast becomes mandatory. (S)he who has less to do OOC stuff is more powerful.

2) (-) Buffing other characters becomes less desirable unless they pay you. Its a party game, this isn't as desirable.

3) (+/-) Spellcasters have to restrict their spellcasting, which is already the case anyway. Take a level 30, running through hard dungeons. Your rest timer is 15-20 minutes. You definitely don't have enough spells to be slinging at everything. In the current environment, you need to watch your spells as it is. This purpose is already being done.

4) (-) Such a system won't differentiate between OOC and IC. Just like alignment changes with spells, OOC testing and mucking around bleeds into your IC life, which it shouldn't. You can't do any OOC testing or mucking around without it costing you gold.

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I don't see any direct upsides that aren't already being done. I do see a couple of negatives floating around, however. So no. It doesn't seem like a good idea.

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Here is a good way to add a spell reagent system:

Example, level 1 spells match with a bloodstone (just an example, it doesn't need to be a bloodstone).

When you have a bloodstone and cast a level 1 spell, your CL increases by 1. The bloodstone is consumed.

The bonus could be a variety of things, depending on the the reagent. A reagent could add +DC, +CL, +Spell Pen, it could add additional effects (a buff spell could give someone +AB, +Dodge AC, etc. A hostile spell could take away AC, AB, Damage, etc.). That is a far better way to add in the system, and it motivates people to collect reagents and use them instead of forcing them to just having to grind for gold.

The bonus should be smaller for cheaper ingredients, and larger for more expensive ingredients. However, the bonus should never be too high. No larger than +2 or +3 of something. It shouldn't be mandatory, but it should be nice to have.

[Mallore]

I would hate to see every wizard nickle and dimed for every spell

However there are spells which in the books cost a ton of gold and should probably here.

Most notably True Sight. that spell is suppose to sling 250 gp.

True Seeing
Divination
Level:
Clr 5, Drd 7, Knowledge 5,
Sor/Wiz 6
Components:
V, S, M
Casting Time:
1 standard action
Range:
Touch
Target:
Creature touched
Duration:
1 min./level
Saving Throw:
Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance:
Yes (harmless)
You confer on the subject the ability to see
all things as they actually are. The subject
sees through normal and magical darkness,
notices secret doors hidden by magic, sees
the exact locations of creatures or objects
under blur or displacement effects, sees invisible
creatures or objects normally, sees
through illusions, and sees the true form of
polymorphed, changed, or transmuted
things. Further, the subject can focus its
vision to see into the Ethereal Plane (but
not into extradimensional spaces). The
range of true seeing conferred is 120 feet.
True seeing, however, does not penetrate
solid objects. It in no way confers X-ray
vision or its equivalent. It does not negate
concealment, including that caused by fog
and the like. True seeing does not help the
viewer see through mundane disguises,
spot creatures who are simply hiding, or
notice secret doors hidden by mundane
means. In addition, the spell effects cannot
be further enhanced with known magic, so
one cannot use true seeing through a crystal
ball or in conjunction with clairaudience/
clairvoyance
.
Material Component:
An ointment for the
eyes that costs 250 gp and is made from
mushroom powder, saffron, and fat.

Seams only fair if someone is going to use this spell they should pay the cost to negate what soemone else had to pay for with a magic wand change. Invisibility or a potion, or blurr affects or what not . Or more so to see through someones polymorph either cast, through wand or core class function.

[Deathgrowl]

These kinds of threads usually just come off as anti-magic-class campaigns. Not saying this is the intention here. But what is the intention? Who is going to have more fun with this implemented? As a player of a caster myself, I don't think I'll enjoy this kind of change. As a player of non-casters, I can't see how others having to suffer gold cost is more fun for me.

So what's the purpose, really? To whose benefit is this?

[Mallore]

It is not unfair to call for costs for abilities which should cost gold to cost gold, when those abilities can be spammed endlessly with rest timer. Really why should -you- get to pay nothing to negate my abilitiy I have to pay for?

I have to pay for my wands... so why shouldnt you pay something to negate them?


I do get you though, does it add to the fun? well the abuse does take away from other peoples fun so we really gotta be fair to all. After all look at the UMD "Fix" as a umd toon i just got the nerf bat. whos fun did that add to?

So really comes down to. If I have to pay, you should to. Or atleast drop my costs to free too!