DETECT EVIL - PALADINS

[Darradarljod]

Hey guys. Can someone give me the run down on our Detect Evil ruling here? I have a vague understanding from somewhere that it is forbidden.

As an player of a Paladin, Detect Evil would be very helpful for my character to make black and white distinctions with 100% confidence, to avoid making ethos violations (partying with evil characters). If it is forbidden, can it still operate by player-player consent, or is it considered to not even exist as a supernatural power? I have used it in DM events by request and under supervision.

Thanks for any links to former threads/offical rulings.

D

[Pimple]

Subject: DM Rulings: A Record of DM Decisions

Smite Evil and Alignment detection
Smite Evil is not to be used as a substitute to Detect Evil in non combat situations in order to detect alignment. It is a breach of the Paladin Code to strike someone to slay them when there is uncertainty as to whether death is deserved. The feedback given in the combat log should not be used to determine whether a PC is evil or not.

PnP/Lore spells
Between players: Spells that do not exist in the game do not exist. Cantrips that do not affect another player are fine, but all other spells do not exist. (this is part of play what is on your sheet)

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Is it an ability you actually get in the game?

Edit: If players can agree to it though, I mean, who's gonna complain?

[Valefort]

Detect evil is not an ability you can get in game no.

[Nyeleni]

Sadly no. We aren't mature enough to deserve it.

[Okan]

I mean I don't it's a maturity issue, after all, there are many ways to get around it, including several spells that are already in the game. Mind blank -in PnP version- does prevent any divination magic that tries to obtain information to work on you. Nondetection makes it harder.

Also, there are spell and item for the sole purpose of hiding one's alignment. I think it would create good roleplaying opportunities for paladins and people who hide their alignment. After all detect evil is not a constant passive ability and has to be activated as a spell like ability, therefore people would know when they are being checked. And paladins should not be checking for that constantly anyway. It isn't really a lawful good act forcefully violating one's privacy without permission if there is no basis for investigate.

[DM Dagon]

Hey guys. Can someone give me the run down on our Detect Evil ruling here? I have a vague understanding from somewhere that it is forbidden.

As an player of a Paladin, Detect Evil would be very helpful for my character to make black and white distinctions with 100% confidence, to avoid making ethos violations (partying with evil characters). If it is forbidden, can it still operate by player-player consent, or is it considered to not even exist as a supernatural power? I have used it in DM events by request and under supervision.

Thanks for any links to former threads/offical rulings.

D

Personal opinion:

If it is a relief, accidental partying with evil characters won't be held against you in any manner, considering the lack of means of detection. If they show their true nature, you know what to do.

The situation might not be ideal, but many occasions (some from the past, some from not so past) seem to indicate that this ruling of ours is very much needed in it's current state.

[Tsidkenu]

I'd be happy enough to allow Detect Evil as a Paladin SLA (& cleric spell) as long as it is added alongside Undetectable Alignment for wiz/sorc/bard, clerics/fs, blackguards, assassins and warlocks

[Xanfyrst]

Evil alignment doesn't mean they do evil things. You can't arrest someone from thinking about stealing.

Paladins can also see it has a possibility to change the hearts of those "bad" people instead of avoiding them.

[Hoihe]

Evil alignment doesn't mean they do evil things. You can't arrest someone from thinking about stealing.

Paladins can also see it has a possibility to change the hearts of those "bad" people instead of avoiding them.

And to take this further,

many "heroes" of legends and so are in fact evil due to their brutality and unyielding nature in pursuit of greater good.

[Nyeleni]

Bah, the whole alignment system doesn't make sense. But if you need it to simplify things, use it.

Simplification only leads to more confusion though.

[Fury_US]

It becomes a maturity issue because of the number of people who use it as a pvp initiator. And to be fair, after having been on a server where some of our "paladins" literally walked up to players with no preamble whatsoever and threw a "detect evil" on them, I'm very glad it is not available on this server (it was being taken away from the other, as well, for that precise reason).

Mind, I know for a fact that the OP would never, ever do something like that, but it's an oft abused spell when it's available. A very big part of being a paladin is the struggle one must endure between being a mere mortal while trying to hold to such lofty oaths. The world looks to you to be, and your faith demands you to be something larger than life; a paragon of what is righteous and just. But, beneath it all, you're merely a man, or a woman, and capable of all the flaws that goes along with such humble origins. Being a paladin is thus ridiculously hard- and in a game like this, it can very often be difficult to emphasize that because of the way such spells work. Spells such as detect evil work in a pnp setting because it's (if my understanding of the spell is correct, and how it's been handled in pnp games I have been in), meant to detect if the target is intending evil actions at the time, and that simply can't be translated into a video game.

Paladins must rely on their own fallible, mortal judgement instead. And that's never simple. But in the end, it makes for a way, way better story.

[Yiska]

I'd be happy enough to allow Detect Evil as a Paladin SLA (& cleric spell) as long as it is added alongside Undetectable Alignment for wiz/sorc/bard, clerics/fs, blackguards, assassins and warlocks

I'd say add potions with it too, at least somewhere accessible. :T

[Darradarljod]

Paladins would become a bit more of a threat with Detect Evil - and I think that's healthy. When a Paladin can - as they were designed to - cut through the pretenses and deception of the wicked and manipulative by supernaturally detecting them as an objectively evil creature, they will again become the blood hounds of the righteous.



Maybe a good time to mention that giants (ogres, hill giants) spawning on the Lion's Way south of FAI are immune to smite evil because they are "not evil". Are they lawful neutral bridge toll collectors? Who knows.

[Fury_US]

Paladins would become a bit more of a threat with Detect Evil - and I think that's healthy. When a Paladin can - as they were designed to - cut through the pretenses and deception of the wicked and manipulative by supernaturally detecting them as an objectively evil creature, they will again become the blood hounds of the righteous.

Again, you're overlooking the fact that the spell is intended to work as a "What is this person's intent in this moment". It only ever cuts through the BS in a brief window of time, when the paladin has enough doubt drawn from his own personal judgement to cast it. Even in a pnp setting, the spell should not be used as a way to just "spot the evil guy to smash in the face", and should have some kind of lead in, or reason why the paladin would be casting it in the first place. Mechanically, that's not possible in game- you're just going to be told someone's alignment- which is an incorrect interpretation of the spell, and as a rule generally useless against all those folks who just roll "chaotic neutral" and then go forth, and be unsmitably evil.

[Darradarljod]

Paladins would become a bit more of a threat with Detect Evil - and I think that's healthy. When a Paladin can - as they were designed to - cut through the pretenses and deception of the wicked and manipulative by supernaturally detecting them as an objectively evil creature, they will again become the blood hounds of the righteous.

Again, you're overlooking the fact that the spell is intended to work as a "What is this person's intent in this moment". It only ever cuts through the BS in a brief window of time, when the paladin has enough doubt drawn from his own personal judgement to cast it. Even in a pnp setting, the spell should not be used as a way to just "spot the evil guy to smash in the face", and should have some kind of lead in, or reason why the paladin would be casting it in the first place. Mechanically, that's not possible in game- you're just going to be told someone's alignment- which is an incorrect interpretation of the spell, and as a rule generally useless against all those folks who just roll "chaotic neutral" and then go forth, and be unsmitably evil.

The spell isn't intended to work in discerning people's intent in a moment. That might be the common skill, "Sense Motive". Detect evil discerns evil by auras, and works as follows;

Detect Evil (Sp)
At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell. A paladin can, as a move action, concentrate on a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine if it is evil, learning the strength of its aura as if having studied it for 3 rounds. While focusing on one individual or object, the paladin does not detect evil in any other object or individual within range.

The spell in full:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/detect-evil

"1st Round: Presence or absence of evil.
2nd Round: Number of evil auras (creatures, objects, or spells) in the area and the power of the most potent evil aura present.
If you are of good alignment, and the strongest evil aura’s power is overwhelming (see below), and the HD or level of the aura’s source is at least twice your character level, you are stunned for 1 round and the spell ends.
3rd Round: The power and location of each aura. If an aura is outside your line of sight, then you discern its direction but not its exact location."

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Who remembers in the original Baldur's Gate game a particular paladin NPC entering taverns of the city, deliberately exercising his ability to "Detect Evil" on the crowds? If he detects evil characters in your party, he calls them out and attacks them. Casting Detect Evil is not necessarily a matter provokation by doubtful behavior - a Paladin already knows evil exists, and he knows this supernatural ability is a tool in his arsenal to find it out, and persecute it.