Is Sorcerer actually a very weak class?

[ZStreeter]

They're horribly weak and limited in comparison to wizards imo. There is no incentive to play them outside of RP preference.

But you can always go the route of a Paladin/Sorcerer or some general divine might-gish sort of thing. Which is still better than all non-caster builds.

[metaquad4]

Sorcerer makes no better blaster than a wizard. You just need to have your spell set up right, and you'll be able to blast as a wizard even better than a sorcerer (a shadowdancer splash works perfectly with this).

Sorcerers get 1 more spell than a specced wizard, which is pretty pathetic. There is pretty much no reason to go Sorc, unless you REALLY want divine armor and/or CHA-to-Saves (which are not as good as the wizard alternatives).

One way to make sorcerer come out into its own is to give it more spells/day. 50% more would do it (raising it from 6 spells to 9 spells per day). In addition, make it so that when sorcerer reaches pure (no practiced spellcaster or +CL feats) 21 CL, they get another level 1 spell. At CL 22, they get another level 2 spell. At CL 23, they get another level 3 spell. This goes up until CL 30, at which they get another spell of each spell level (1-9).

[Hawke]

Are the spell progression tables incorrect? I thought sorcerers got 6 spells per day and wizards got 4 per day.

Thanks for clearing me up.

[illithid]

they mean a specialised wizard, that picks up extra spells but looses a school

[Hawke]

Oh, well that is comparing apples to coconuts.

Isn't it?

If I give up a school I lose about 2-3 very nice spells to have access to with any school chosen.

If a comparison is to be made, why not compare vanilla to vanilla?

[Flights of Fantasy]

Actually, it's not that big of a sacrifice. All you have to do is figured out what school you never use anyway. I believe divination is the one most often sacrificed because most of the good spells in that school are, ironically, the ones used for role play like scrying.

[Deathgrowl]

1. Almost no reason to be a pure Sorcerer

Same can be said for rogue, fighter, swashbuckler... Even wizard is better when multiclassed.

2. Compared to the other "Natural" Spell Casters

Difficult comparison. Sorcerer is an offensive caster, but can make for a great gish.

Favoured soul is a meleer (and better than absolutely everything else anyways), and makes a poor offensive caster.

Spirit shaman is just not very good at all.

Bard is a meleer. Can't ever compare with spells offensively to Sorcerer.

3. Even multi-classing is difficult

No. This is just wrong.

Sorcerer10/asoc10/archmage10 is a fantastic, versatile blaster. Can do the same with a paladin dip and get charisma to saves too.

Sorcerer6/rogue4/asoc10/arcane trickster10 is also a great blaster.

Some sorcerer/shadow adept/blood magus/archmage combo I don't remember off the top of my head, is supposedly insanely good DC mage.

Wizards lend themselves better to be versatile DC mages with their more varied spell book, but sorcerers are in every case better blasters.

[Flights of Fantasy]

Same can be said for rogue, fighter, swashbuckler... Even wizard is better when multiclassed.

The first three classes & wizard all get bonus feats throughout their career that gives plenty of incentive to be pure. You can literally tailor them to your exact tastes. Swashbucklers get a slew of class feats that allow them to dance around their opponents. They even get extra damage from their Int bonus.

Whether or not a sorcerer can be made better by multi-classing wasn't the point. It's the fact that there is almost no reason at all to be a pure sorcerer.

Spirit shaman is just not very good at all.

Shamans could use some improvement, but they are really good in their own right. Shamans are to spirits the way Clerics are to the undead. The problem is the server doesn't use spirits very much. While I wouldn't call myself a veteran, I've yet to encounter a wraith anywhere in BG. Granted, if I RP my dwarf more, I'm sure I'll run into some spirits in DM events.

Bard is a meleer. Can't ever compare with spells offensively to Sorcerer.

I didn't include the bard in that point. I'm not sure why you brought the class up.

3. Even multi-classing is difficult

No. This is just wrong.

Sorcerer10/asoc10/archmage10 is a fantastic, versatile blaster. Can do the same with a paladin dip and get charisma to saves too.

Sorcerer6/rogue4/asoc10/arcane trickster10 is also a great blaster.

Some sorcerer/shadow adept/blood magus/archmage combo I don't remember off the top of my head, is supposedly insanely good DC mage.

No it isn't. In fact, you just proved my point. One of those options you are not even sure of, requires the character to be a worshiper of Shar, and requires DM approval. And a wizard could do all of those builds and even do them better.

Sorcerer10/asoc10/archmage10 > Wizard10(or Wizard5/ArcaneClass5)/ASoC10/ArchMage10

Now you have an even more versatile blaster that can focus on a school type of blast spells and only loose one spell per day for each level of spells. You can also tailor your spell book to handle just about any situation. On top of that, you can drop 5 levels of wizard and invest in any other arcane caster class you like. Want some tough summons to back you up? Thaumaturge. Tap into the Shadow Weave? Shadow Adept. Want to be a Harper? Agent or Mage.

Sorcerer6/rogue4/asoc10/arcane trickster10 > WizardX/RogueX/ASoC10/ArcaneTrickster10

It's the same once again but now more versatility. You might even be able to sub rogue for a PrC that grants sneak damage. Now you don't have to worry about level penalties.

I won't bother going into the Shadow Adept combination as it will end the same way. Wizard can always do a better job multi-classing than a sorcerer because they're far more flexible. Sorcerer, meanwhile, has to work with the limits he has and proves my point: Along with his other limitations, a Sorcerer even has trouble multi-classing.

[metaquad4]

1. Almost no reason to be a pure Sorcerer

Same can be said for rogue, fighter, swashbuckler... Even wizard is better when multiclassed.

2. Compared to the other "Natural" Spell Casters

Difficult comparison. Sorcerer is an offensive caster, but can make for a great gish.

Favoured soul is a meleer (and better than absolutely everything else anyways), and makes a poor offensive caster.

Spirit shaman is just not very good at all.

Bard is a meleer. Can't ever compare with spells offensively to Sorcerer.

3. Even multi-classing is difficult

No. This is just wrong.

Sorcerer10/asoc10/archmage10 is a fantastic, versatile blaster. Can do the same with a paladin dip and get charisma to saves too.

Sorcerer6/rogue4/asoc10/arcane trickster10 is also a great blaster.

Some sorcerer/shadow adept/blood magus/archmage combo I don't remember off the top of my head, is supposedly insanely good DC mage.

Wizards lend themselves better to be versatile DC mages with their more varied spell book, but sorcerers are in every case better blasters.

Wizard 10/Asoc 10/AM 10 makes for a way better build than sorcerer. You lose 1 spell/day, and you gain a whole lot of versatility. The best schools to lose are enchantment (you lose G. Heroism and Dominate, which aren't really necessary) and divination (just RP spells, the ones that aren't are pretty useless in practical combat.).

Wizard 6/Rouge 4/Asoc 10/Arcane trickster 10 is far better than its sorcerer variant as well. Especially with the synergy with INT (more skills). CHA doesn't lend you anything in that build.

Wizard/Shadow Adept/Blood Magus/Archmage would, again, give you the same DCs (or better, since you don't need to split int for skills and CHA for spellcasting) will more skills (again, no CHA synergy in any of those classes) and way more spell selection (lose enchantment or divination, again. Just lose 1 spell/day, which is nothing.).

A paladin dip is "ok". Divine Shield's QoL is poor, and its not even that necessary most of the time. HiPs is a much better defense than it. And the CHA-to-Saves isn't really that necessary, your saves should be high enough (not to mention, wizards are immune to most things.). Its an inferior version to its counterpart.

Anything a sorcerer can do, a wizard can do better. By no means is sorcerer poor. But, it is an inferior version of wizard. You want to be a blaster? No problem. Wizard/ASOC/SD/(B/F)M! You want to be a DC caster? No problem. Wizard/Shadow Adept/Red Wizard/Archmage OR Wizard/Shadow Adept/Blood Magus/Archmage, etcetera. You want to be a gish? (Carve your lungs out) No problem! Wizard/Eldrich Knight/Swashbuckler/Bladesinger (or what have you).

For the record, spirit shaman is pretty good atm as long as you have the right build for it. You can achieve similar DCs to a druid (30+Spell Level and up), and you trade wildshape for UMD/Item usage. Plus, you can get hierophant's lovely stuff while on a druid it is more optimal to go pure for dragon shape (and gain all the tankiness therein).

[Flights of Fantasy]

That's more-or-less what I said but yeah. As much as I love sorcerers, the fact of the matter is that, to a wizard, a sorcerer is just a novice that doesn't know when to shut up. Hence their need for the bluff skill.

[Tsidkenu]

As long as there is the ASoC PRC, a sorcerer will always be a better blaster than a wizard. The expansion of their core spells over several spell levels via metamagic, at a whim and with no need for prior preparation, is what tips the scale for me. Need a quickened mantle? Cast it. Need ten quickened mantles? Cast them! Need fourteen IGMS to nuke down a boss? Cast them!

A wizard cannot do this on the fly; they must have prepared such things meticulously in advance and they cannot switch between options once they have rested and their spell book is set. A sorcerer can cast whatever they need from their far more limited selection in a far more expansive way than any wizard can. The key to playing a sorcerer is spell, PRC and metamagic selection that lets you overcome your limited spell book by being able to chop and change your spell level management.

[Lockonnow]

well it is easy and more fun to play wizard then it is sorcerer

[Steve]

Play a Sorcerer with Arcane Fire from Arch Mage. Lolz.

[Flights of Fantasy]

As long as there is the ASoC PRC, a sorcerer will always be a better blaster than a wizard. The expansion of their core spells over several spell levels via metamagic, at a whim and with no need for prior preparation, is what tips the scale for me. Need a quickened mantle? Cast it. Need ten quickened mantles? Cast them! Need fourteen IGMS to nuke down a boss? Cast them!

A wizard cannot do this on the fly; they must have prepared such things meticulously in advance and they cannot switch between options once they have rested and their spell book is set. A sorcerer can cast whatever they need from their far more limited selection in a far more expansive way than any wizard can. The key to playing a sorcerer is spell, PRC and metamagic selection that lets you overcome your limited spell book by being able to chop and change your spell level management.

But it doesn't change the fact that a wizard can do the same minus a spell or two. You want to nuke down a boss with IGMS? Prepare your spell book. You're instantly a blaster "sorcerer". You can even keep your spell book like that forever if you want. Get tired of it? Change your spell book and become something else entirely. In a PW with static dungeons and monster spawns that never change, being able to prepare is a far greater advantage than not being able to prepare.

The only time not having to prepare your spells is an advantage is in a dynamic situation created via a DM event because you don't know what's going to happen. Even then, you can prepare your spell book to some degree if you have a rough idea of what you're dealing with. Despite this it is possible to run into a situation where none of the spells in your book are right but that can happen to sorcerers, too. If you're a wizard, you at least have the option of running away, preparing, and then coming back. If you're a sorcerer, you don't have that option. You make do with what you got.

Either way, this is further proving my point that sorcerers are dependent on PrCs and there's no benefit to staying pure.

[chad878262]

But if the wizard encounters something unexpected having only prepared blasting spells he could be in trouble. He needs to have a few "oh crap" spells for when the unexpected occurs, so really it's a few more spells he usually won't use, but needs jyst in case. Meanwhile the sorcerer always has all his spells known available so when the unexpected doesn't happen he has more staying power while retaining his "break glass in case of emergency" spells until he's used all his slots.