Is Sorcerer actually a very weak class?

[Flights of Fantasy]

Then he just adds a few "oh crap" spells to his book and keeps them there. Problem solved.

[Tsidkenu]

Which means you no longer have Sorcerer Quantity -1, as everyone else has been saying. For every buff you memorise, every teleport, every summon, that's one less of something else you could have at that level. Try playing a wizard with no buffs, emergency spells or summons memorised, only blast spells, and see how that goes for you. Of course what I am suggesting is ridiculous and no-one would play a wizard like that, so already the nukes-per-day gap is widening.

Sorcerers do not have this weakness. Their full spell book and full metamagic allotment is available as long as they have spells per day available to use, whenever they want to use them. Sorcerers are not weaker than wizards. They're different. That is all.

[Flights of Fantasy]

There's no point in arguing this subject as it's now coming down to different perspectives. The only thing more I'm going to say is this: A sorcerer is always prepared to handle some situations, but a wizard can be prepared to handle all situations.

[ZestyDragon]

Sorcs might make for a better blaster then wizards. However blasters are crap on BG, Two or three nukes to kill a monster means that extra spell slot you have per level is meaningless. NwN2 gives creatures max HP per level it does not give max spell damage per level.

[the_flame_of_anor]

As long as there is the ASoC PRC, a sorcerer will always be a better blaster than a wizard. The expansion of their core spells over several spell levels via metamagic, at a whim and with no need for prior preparation, is what tips the scale for me. Need a quickened mantle? Cast it. Need ten quickened mantles? Cast them! Need fourteen IGMS to nuke down a boss? Cast them!

A wizard cannot do this on the fly; they must have prepared such things meticulously in advance and they cannot switch between options once they have rested and their spell book is set. A sorcerer can cast whatever they need from their far more limited selection in a far more expansive way than any wizard can. The key to playing a sorcerer is spell, PRC and metamagic selection that lets you overcome your limited spell book by being able to chop and change your spell level management.

Which means you no longer have Sorcerer Quantity -1, as everyone else has been saying. For every buff you memorise, every teleport, every summon, that's one less of something else you could have at that level. Try playing a wizard with no buffs, emergency spells or summons memorised, only blast spells, and see how that goes for you. Of course what I am suggesting is ridiculous and no-one would play a wizard like that, so already the nukes-per-day gap is widening.

Sorcerers do not have this weakness. Their full spell book and full metamagic allotment is available as long as they have spells per day available to use, whenever they want to use them. Sorcerers are not weaker than wizards. They're different. That is all.

I play a sorcerer and I can't agree more.

Over the years, I've tried very hard playing wizards, often going to the extent of RCRing my sorcerer, then spending hundreds of thousands of gold rebuilding my spellbook, only to RCR back into a sorcerer again, thereby wasting all those gold. Apart from play style preferences and differences in RP angles, the advantages that Tsidkenu described above were what sealed the deal for me.

The one other thing I would add here is the flexibility that sorcerers have when dispelled or morded, and multiple times at that, with no rest in sight. The sorcerer simply recast his buffs, with a small loss to firepower. The wizard is basically screwed, unless his spellbook is mainly filled with buffs, and even then, the loss to firepower is huge.

Anecdotally, I find the sorcerers I play far more effective at PvP and PvM than the wizards I play, both with similar builds. I last longer, kill more and loot more with my sorc in one rest cycle than with my wiz, without relying on consumables. It could just be a play style thing, and knowing how to spell-optimize my sorc. I am not an experienced wizard player so that contributes as well.

But I agree with the OP in that pure sorcerers are underwhelming. My main sorc is a Sorc 6 / ASOC 10 / Xx / Yy. I can't imagine him otherwise.

Also, the unavailability of the dragon disciple class on this server also diminishes the attractiveness of sorcerers somewhat.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

You can have the better build on paper and still lose a fight due to competency differences between the players. Anor's point is spot on for me as well, though I left Sorcerer for Wizard. Seventy spell slots that I can shift through meta and the versatility keeps me squarely locked. In PvE I don't need to blast, I just need extended AoEs. In PvP I let the DCs do the talking.

If I have to burn a spellbook for the latter then I'm not playing the best part of it's role design.

[Rask]

I love my sorc. She has crazy AC and is a party-boosting machine. She can buff entire parties of 6 people and still have spells left over for those rough fights. She can get 70AC - 80AC (not even counting stuff like displacement.) with her buffs and facilitate tanking while the DPS take things down. Not to mention that sweet sweet high CHA for RP.

Such a great class for group play.

Wizards on the other hand, are much easier to power-build/power-game, and solo with. But can be a lot less valuable in large parties.

[the_flame_of_anor]

I love my sorc. She has crazy AC and is a party-boosting machine. She can buff entire parties of 6 people and still have spells left over for those rough fights. She can get 70AC - 80AC (not even counting stuff like displacement.) with her buffs and facilitate tanking while the DPS take things down. Not to mention that sweet sweet high CHA for RP.

Such a great class for group play.

Wizards on the other hand, are much easier to power-build/power-game, and solo with. But can be a lot less valuable in large parties.

I call a sorcerer's bluff on that 70-80 AC!

[AlfarinIcebreaker]

I believe that most of us agree that sorcerer is certainly not a weak class. The problem with sorcerer is that you have absolutely no incentive in going more than 6 levels in the class. In ANY varitation of the build, be that gish, blaster, DC or something else. That should be remedied, obviously. Just give them like additional spell to choose every X levels or something. It should be fairly easy for QC to brainstorm and implement.

[Rask]

I love my sorc. She has crazy AC and is a party-boosting machine. She can buff entire parties of 6 people and still have spells left over for those rough fights. She can get 70AC - 80AC (not even counting stuff like displacement.) with her buffs and facilitate tanking while the DPS take things down. Not to mention that sweet sweet high CHA for RP.

Such a great class for group play.

Wizards on the other hand, are much easier to power-build/power-game, and solo with. But can be a lot less valuable in large parties.

I call a sorcerer's bluff on that 70-80 AC!

Negative, use Blackguard (Divine Shield.), Auto-still spell, and Pale Master, with high CHA and good gear, you easily hit close to 80AC, you're crit immune, you're an absolute monster. Of course you're still relying on blasts and you cant melee fight for shit, but you can tank anything forever and buff your whole party. You also still maintain a 29th CL with 10 levels of ASOCK. Take both Combat Expertise feats(+6AC), ect

The only trade off between getting 80AC or 70-somthing, is if you want Extend Spell or not instead of Imp combat expertise.

Rask had this build when I played him, and I easily hit 70 AC and his gear sucked. My new sorc is using a similar (but slightly improved.) build, and is already hitting 55 AC and doesn't even have auto-still yet or all its proper gear and is barely level 21.

This combo is by and large the most powerful combo you can probably do for a sorc on this server that I am aware of.

[cosmic ray]

You can't fit all of those things into 30 levels. *scratches head*

[CleverUsername123]

You can't fit all of those things into 30 levels. *scratches head*

Sorc 6/PM 10/ASoC 10/BG 4?
Alternatively, S 6/PM 8/ASoC 10/BG 6.

[cosmic ray]

Not the classes, but the alleged caster level with all those abilities.

[Steve]

Not the classes, but the alleged caster level with all those abilities.

Yes, CL should be 26, not 29. Sorc 6 + PM 6 + Asoc 10 + 4 PSC = 26.

The Dispel Fix will munch it, if it uses Buffs against Epic Bosses.

[CleverUsername123]

Not the classes, but the alleged caster level with all those abilities.

Yes, CL should be 26, not 29. Sorc 6 + PM 6 + Asoc 10 + 4 PSC = 26.

The Dispel Fix will munch it, if it uses Buffs against Epic Bosses.

CL gets up to 29 if you go S 9/PM 8/ASoC 10/BG 3