Is Sorcerer actually a very weak class?

[Steve]

Yes, but Rask stated "crit immune" which is a Pale Master 10 feat, and ASoC at 10.

So that's at most Sorc 7 / PM 10 / ASoC 10 / BG 3 for 7 + 6 + 10 + 4 = 27.

[the_flame_of_anor]

I love my sorc. She has crazy AC and is a party-boosting machine. She can buff entire parties of 6 people and still have spells left over for those rough fights. She can get 70AC - 80AC (not even counting stuff like displacement.) with her buffs and facilitate tanking while the DPS take things down. Not to mention that sweet sweet high CHA for RP.

Such a great class for group play.

Wizards on the other hand, are much easier to power-build/power-game, and solo with. But can be a lot less valuable in large parties.

I call a sorcerer's bluff on that 70-80 AC!

Negative, use Blackguard (Divine Shield.), Auto-still spell, and Pale Master, with high CHA and good gear, you easily hit close to 80AC, you're crit immune, you're an absolute monster. Of course you're still relying on blasts and you cant melee fight for (#2), but you can tank anything forever and buff your whole party. You also still maintain a 29th CL with 10 levels of ASOCK. Take both Combat Expertise feats(+6AC), ect

The only trade off between getting 80AC or 70-somthing, is if you want Extend Spell or not instead of Imp combat expertise.

Rask had this build when I played him, and I easily hit 70 AC and his gear sucked. My new sorc is using a similar (but slightly improved.) build, and is already hitting 55 AC and doesn't even have auto-still yet or all its proper gear and is barely level 21.

This combo is by and large the most powerful combo you can probably do for a sorc on this server that I am aware of.

Ah fair enough, I overlooked Divine Shield.

[Flights of Fantasy]

I can't help but think there's a problem when just about every Sorcerer build listed on here has ASoC in it.

[ZestyDragon]

That is because there is no reason to take it without ASoC.

[Snarfy]

I have a Sorc 15/Frost Mage 10/Thaumateurge 5 summoner and he does just fine. Summon creature 9th, load it up with buffs and watch it beat monsters up, drop a web/grease/evards/maximized cloudkill for groups, and maximized orbs or polar ray for damage, things die.

What the hell is this thread about anyways?

[aaron22]

I can't help but think there's a problem when just about every Sorcerer build listed on here has ASoC in it.

there is no way you can not see the advantage of having that PRC in your sorc build. what would a rogue look like without sin or SD? its peanut butter and jelly.

[CrimsonMist]

That is because there is no reason to take it without ASoC.

It's much the same reason that virtually every cleric build now has Hierophant - Cleric is obviously in no way a weak class (and has potential to be significantly stronger than sorcerer) but Hierophant allows them to do everything they could do anyway but better.

Sorcerer isn't weak but because you don't get anything for being a pure sorcerer, you may as well multiclass into something like ASoC that gives bonuses but doesn't take anything away.

[mrm3ntalist]

I prefer playing sorcerers than wizards. The freedom it gives you regarding which spells to use and how many times, can be very powerful. I consider that sorcerers can be more powerful than wizards in general unless a wizard ahs a 100% optimal spellbook and everything goes according to plan - or unless Invoker is playing the wizard.

There is a big BUT though. Actually more than one.
- There is absolutely 0 reasons to get Sorc above 6. Absolutely none.
- With so many new spells introduced it is very expensive to play a sorc or if you dont want to use scrolls thus reduce the expenses, it can be very limiting especially regarding Roleplay.
- Sorcerers are very harsh to inexperienced players. Not only you have to figure out the appropriate build, but it is 100% essential to make the correct spell choice, otherwise one will need to have a chat with the RCR bot. There is no way to swap spells after 20, so for a new player that means repeated chats with the RCR bot. After figuring out the ideal - for me - class and level split - i rcred my first Sorcerer more than 5 times just to get the spells right. A wizard does not have to do that, even if new spells are introduced.
- Finally skill points. Due to the skills that one needs to raise, a sorc usually ends up with very few points to spend on skills such as lore ( which we conveniently increased to a sick amount for non INT chars ) and other RP skills that enhance a casters RP abilities.

There are some things that might be able to be done to increase the quality of gameplay regarding sorcerers, without boosting their powerlevel. At the same time it wouldnt be unfair to suggest some powerboosts for any sorc that goes over Sorc6 or even find a formula to give sorcs some RP only spells as SLAs.

[metaquad4]

Try playing a wizard with no buffs, emergency spells or summons memorised, only blast spells, and see how that goes for you. Of course what I am suggesting is ridiculous and no-one would play a wizard like that, so already the nukes-per-day gap is widening.

Incidentally, I did nearly that exact thing with my HiPs wizard for loot runs (the only buff I prepared was shades, for when I was caught for the 3 seconds. I was rarely caught, I think I could have survived without it if my wits were about me 100% of the time.). It works fairly well, actually. So. . .its not that ridiculous, you just need the appropriate amount of "l2p" and the right build.

[Snarfy]

- There is absolutely 0 reasons to get Sorc above 6. Absolutely none.

I can think of one: RP.

Personally speaking, I never build for power(none of my 11 characters would be considered power builds, and maybe only one is semi-optimized). Concept always comes first, then I build around that. And if my characters struggle against content, great... I'd rather have a flawed character and be challenged than mop the floor everywhere I go.

That being said, my Sorc15/FM10/Th5 has never had any issues(and I suck with casters), as in: zero deaths in PVE(at least since he's been over level 10), and he can easily handle the majority of zones I take him to. And if he starts to get whalloped, he simply runs

Quite frankly, after getting my Sorc up to level 30, I find the notion that sorcerers being weak at all is patently absurd.

[aaron22]

to me, the skill points they have feels correct. they are not the super smart and highly motivated persons that wizards are. they can just do it. dont necessarily have to know why or how. they can just pull from the weave through strength of personality (no idea how that works either.... willpower? perhaps?). not having all the skill points that a wizard has is part of the deal. they dont need to study all night and day to achieve, they just do it. so in turn, they dont have a ton of various knowledges. they simply dont need it.

so i think skill point bonuses are moving away from lore.. not toward it at all. perhaps maybe a + to all skills might be digestible....

[Ariella]

Adding Diplomacy and Intimidate to their skill list would be nice.

[Face]

Dont think 2 casts per day from spell level 1 to 6 and 1 more cast a day for 7 to 9 level spells would be a bad thing tbh.

[Nemni]

I don't understand this idea about rewarding pure classes. One of the more unique things about 3e D&D and this game is the possibility of combining up to 4 classes in a (hopefully) unique manner. PRCs are almost always more powerful for any sort of char, and I don't see a problem with that.

As for sorc compared to wizard, the main differences are int vs cha and spontaneous vs prepared. Int is usually better mechanically, even if many people want to have high cha because it's cool . Int allows you to get a ton of skills, which is both powerful and fleshes out your character in RP. A wizard is even often better at charisma oriented tasks such as diplomacy, simply because a sorc finds it very hard to afford to raise such skills, while a wizard affords it with ease.

Prepared spells are also usually better, especially in a server where new spells are introduced every now and then. Spontaneous casting is mostly just good in unpredictable battles, and once you know the server there is little unpredictability left. It mostly comes down to buffing up again after dispels, and pvp. I think pvp is the one main thing a sorc does better than a wiz, simply because it can have all required spells ready at any time (though only if built for that ofc).

find a formula to give sorcs some RP only spells as SLAs.

I really like that suggestion, but I would consider just giving them more spell picks in general. A sorcerer knows 3 level 6 spells, which is incredible limited on this server. In contrast a favoured soul/spirit shaman knows 6 level 6 spells. Even the bard knows 4 and that's not even a pure spellcaster. Seems silly to me.

[Mork]

Want to buff Sorceror? Add Heartwarder class