Casting in Shapechange/Polymorph...is possible! What?!?

[Steve]

Okay, take this in.

I looked up 3.5e Shapechange, and it referred back to:

This spell functions like polymorph, except that it enables you to assume the form of any single nonunique creature (of any type) from Fine to Colossal size.

I then looked up Polymorph, and it referred back to:

This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature.

I then looked up Alter Self, and it says:

You retain your own ability scores. Your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same. You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have (such as a mouth for a breath weapon or eyes for a gaze attack).

You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels.

If the new form is capable of speech, you can communicate normally. You retain any spellcasting ability you had in your original form, but the new form must be able to speak intelligibly (that is, speak a language) to use verbal components and must have limbs capable of fine manipulation to use somatic or material components.

Ergo...a Horned Devil has the ability to speak—known as Infernal—since it is a Greater Baatezu, yet one could say is ever more complex than the vocal needs requiring humanoid spellcasting

The stilted, formal, grating yet strangely melodic tongue of the greater baatezu is full of obscure patterns that seem to meander misleadingly before snapping to an unexpected point. Speaking it properly requires careful planning and the ability to respond intelligently to phrases based only on the most subtle of cues. It's said that two greater baatezu can hold entire conversations in this form of Infernal using only the beginnings of their sentences. It is nearly impossible for mortals to learn.

Additionally, a Horned Devil have limbs and dexterity of equal measure to what humanoid spellcasters require.

A Horned Devil form from Shapechange should be fully capable to cast spells, in the D&D 3.5e world.

Thus, I question the Rule against the Horned Devil form NOT being able to access the Quickcast menu, for casting, and bypassing whatever Obsidian did to stop that from happening. On the other hand, Nightwalkers communicate telepathically, so they can't cast spells that require somatic components. Obviously, Iron Golem doesn't probably have the dexterity for this. But, it is very possible that both Fire and Ice Giants forms are fully capable of casting!!

So, just because NWN2 Shapechange spell says "You cannot cast your spells while transformed. ", it don't actually mean that is the truth of it!

*rotten vegetable shields up at full*

[kkrazlite]

Wow this must have taken some heavy delving into many lore-books to find this out.

Interesting although. . . Very interesting. . .

[metaquad4]

Wait. . .night walkers can cast on this server though, as the NPC shows. So, clearly they *can* use verbal components on BGTSCC.

[Steve]

Wait. . .night walkers can cast on this server though, as the NPC shows. So, clearly they *can* use verbal components on BGTSCC.

Nightwalkers have Spell-like Abilities.

Also:

Nightshades can read and understand all forms of communication; however, they communicate with others by telepathy.

Which is what a Nightwalker is = Nightshade type.

Oh yeah...I knew kkrazlite would like this! lol.

[kkrazlite]

Well if we are speaking of such Metaquad4 all shape-change forms would be readily available to cast in shape-change form. . .

The only one that wouldn't be able too in this case would be Iron Golem because of obvious vocal chorde lack.

[kkrazlite]

Oh yeah...I knew kkrazlite would like this! lol.

Huh. . . I have no idea. . . what you mean. . . .

*Is practically drooling at the mouth*

[Steve]

What I'd like to then see, for farts and laughs, is one mage shapechanged into Horned Devil (spellcasting) and one into Iron Golem (100% spell immunity). Then, go at it!!!

Lol.

I should get out of the house more.

[metaquad4]

Psh! Orbs! Bypass that spell immunity.

[Steve]

I don't know why Orbs are special to bypass 100% Spell Immunity, but maybe I'm missing something?

I welcome anyone to bring to the conversation some Canon facts or Lore that might counter what I have proposed in the OP.

Not only because it flips the script, so to say, but it would also allow Nachti to consider his future Polymorph and Shapechange forms, to balance those that may be able to cast, and those that cannot, and maybe giving those forms that cannot, something special, to balance the reality.

[Moltrazahn]

Gimme gutteral invocations. Ill be all good in my devil form

[Nachti]

Why not ask for a Pit Fiend Form while youre at it?

[JCVD1]

I don't know why Orbs are special to bypass 100% Spell Immunity, but maybe I'm missing something?

Immunity to magic is an ability that functions on all spells and spell like abilities that in their description allow a Spell resistance check.

Orbs line of spells are conjuration spells which have a lot of spells without any Spell resistance checks like Melf's Acid arrow. I remember reading something like Conjuration spells actually create something that is then hurled at the target. Basically you create a rock and then toss it at the magic immune golem. Golems aren't immune to matter. Unlike Fireball (evocation) that burst fire out of nowhere due to use of the manipulation of elements and energy bla bla bla..

[Steve]

Thanks J, it is logical what you wrote. However:

Spell immunity can work against either:

One specific spell.
One school of magic.
All spells of a certain spell level or below.

Magic immunity is ignored by spells without spell resistance. For example, Arc of Lightning will work on an iron golem.

And from what I'm seeing, Magic Immunity is different than Spell Immunity.

Iron Golem

Abilities: STR 33, DEX 9, CON 10
AC: 28 (10 base, -1 Size, -1 DEX, +20 Dodge)
BAB: retained
Damage: 2d10+11 (20/x2)
Other: Construct immunities (disease, critical hits, death magic, negative level effects, ability decrease effects, mind-affecting effects, paralysis, poison, sneak attack), spell immunity (level 0-9), electrical vulnerability (+50%).

Hmmm...

[Flasmix]

Not necessarily Steve. If you look at the spell immunity spell itself from the srd it pretty much shows out as the same thing.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spellImmunity.htm

The warded creature is immune to the effects of one specified spell for every four levels you have. The spells must be of 4th level or lower. The warded creature effectively has unbeatable spell resistance regarding the specified spell or spells. Naturally, that immunity doesn’t protect a creature from spells for which spell resistance doesn’t apply. Spell immunity protects against spells, spell-like effects of magic items, and innate spell-like abilities of creatures. It does not protect against supernatural or extraordinary abilities, such as breath weapons or gaze attacks.

Only a particular spell can be protected against, not a certain domain or school of spells or a group of spells that are similar in effect.

A creature can have only one spell immunity or greater spell immunity spell in effect on it at a time.

So even on this case you cannot pick a spell that goes through spell resistance.

[Steve]

Well, if Spell Immunity = Magic Immunity, in this case and all cases, then that is probably a good thing. Balance wise.