DETECT EVIL - PALADINS

[chad878262]

wouldn't protection from good also work as a buffer against detection by a paladin?

[Moltrazahn]

You are going to open a can of worms by allowing such.

Example.

1. I think you are evil.

Casts spell.

Yep your evil. I can now freely attack you. (Because that is just how some players are)

Example over

Ive rewritten this a few times not to come across too much as a negative nancy...

But.. eh. It does not really matter. Evil can play in the UD after all.

If people want an alignment war to happen...

Well...

This ought to do it.
Tolerance is treason. Is back baby!

[Moltrazahn]

You are going to open a can of worms by allowing such.

Example.

1. I think you are evil.

Casts spell.

Yep your evil. I can now freely attack you. (Because that is just how some players are)

Example over

Ive rewritten this a few times not to come across too much as a negative nancy...

But.. eh. It does not really matter. Evil can play in the UD after all.

If people want an alignment war to happen...

Well...

This ought to do it.
Tolerance is treason. Is back baby!

But Molt! You silly git. You can hide your Alignment!

Silly me indeed.

Example 2.

I think your evil.

*casts spell*

Got something to hide?

I think your evil and think my cause is righteous.

*casts smite evil*

Aha!

*keeps hitting you*

Example two over.

Damage done. Retconned by staff or not.

Because thats how it works.

In a single player game. Sure its a great spell. Hell in pnp with freinds too.

But on this server?
No. I don't see it.

Ive been on the bootend of someone's with an agenda over fassion before. And had staff validate their attack because "it just so happened to be true" before. Sure. -I- went along with it.

Don't mean others would. And the fact that it can happen once. Sets a poor president for what can happen when you introduce more "initiators" like this.

[Llapgoch]

Moltra said what I was thinking ever since I saw the thread appear. Pallys don't need it and the server's been fine w/o it.

[metaquad4]

Shameless repost for reference:

Hidden: show

One way to do this is with text, rather than map indicators:
Round 1: There (is/is not) evil in this area (map).
Round 2: There are X evil entities in this area (map).
Round 3: There are evil entities (north/south/east/west) of your location.

Naturally, None Detection would force a roll against this spell, with Detect Evil using the paladin's caster level. Spell Resistance would force a silent check as well. (Lesser) Mind Blank would give immunity. If Detect Evil fails any of these, then the character is simply not counted as evil.

*Suggestion* Perhaps make round 2 have a 25% chance to give a slightly wrong number. This chance could go down with the paladin's WIS score (2% per wisdom modifier?). Also, this would allow the builders to place in evil peasants and such in cities, with the purpose of displaying that it would be more difficult to detect evil entities in a crowded city.

If what I suggested was used, you wouldn't have to worry about paladins knowing EXACTLY who is evil and who is not. They would know a certain vicinity, as well as vague directions (n/s/e/w). This would allow for some RP to be created, with the brash low WIS paladins casting it and trying to accuse everyone in that direction and some disputes happening as well. The paladin will never achieve a pinpoint direction and will still need to RP and use their wits to decern who is who. A wrongful accusation can shake that paladin's reputation at best, so it can backfire against them too. Especially if they repeatedly accuse wrong individuals, or accuse the right wrong individual. They'll come off as unreliable at best, so they have reason to desire to be careful when using it in this form.

On the flip side, a wise paladin might use this in order to track specific creatures they know are evil that are in their vicinity or to decern what might lie in an area they are about to tread into.

Of course, mobs and summons will count too. So, they can throw off the count or the direction (hint hint).

In addition, it allows for defense against it. Spell Resistance (including mantles/globes of spell immunity?) and None Detection are obvious points. Mind Blank specifically said that it defends against divination spells that decern things about the caster in its PnP edition, so that is why I included it and its twin. Protection from Good doesn't say it does that, on the other hand. So its not like a player is helpless against it either.

If we are going to add it, I think the implementation should go something like that. If we aren't going to add it, that is fine. Paladin players are more than capable of RPing to find evil. If they aren't, they really shouldn't be rolling paladins to begin with.

[Nemni]

Finding out and struggling against Evil-aligned people can make for some excellent roleplaying, so why exchange that for a spell just because it's in PnP?

Totally agree. Besides, the biggest problem paladins seem to have here is finding a way to actually do something concrete about the evil they already see, rather than a problem detecting it.

[mrm3ntalist]

So, all palemasters are actually top models in dresses that need to take no action to hide their skin ( cadaverous flesh ), Blood magus are all sane individuals that happen to like blood and those scars are beautiful cosmetic surgeries, warlocks are just troubled persons really, drow sole scope of existence is to visit the campfire of the FAI, Orcs find it a good idea to hang out just out the FAI because it is safe, while at the same time all are expert in disguises and can act like an oscar winning actor, yet...

the - 1 or 2 or 3 - paladins on the server are THOSE WHO METAGAME!!!!

lol, these threads are funny to read

[Pimple]

These generalizations about what "all x/y/z" are and do don't help any conversation tbh. But yes, players with characters of the paladin class too will probably metagame eventually. It would be silly to assume that is never going to happen.

I'm not worried about the ability to detect the presence of evil in itself, so long as it doesn't dumb down down the RP to "me vs you." But some players will abuse it. If anyone thinks that's never going to happen I don't even know what to say. If this is brought into the game it's only a matter of time until it's abused, because that's just how mature the player base is. When anyone can jump in and begin to play unfiltered we can't expect otherwise. I am for the record not saying that's a bad thing, but let's not pretend everyone will be very mature about the use of this.

The important thing is: when that happens will there be any IC consequences to the paladin gone murder hobo, or will life go on? If this isn't moderated in any way under any circumstances, and if the potential use of it in RP isn't made very clear, then I'm afraid it will just be one more case where when it comes up IC drama will turn into OOC drama, because as usual players will be role-playing different, conflicting realities.

[mrm3ntalist]

These generalizations about what "all x/y/z" are and do don't help any conversation tbh. But yes, players with characters of the paladin class too will probably metagame eventually. It would be silly to assume that is never going to happen.

Very interestingly, NOW generalizations are no good. It was happening through the course of this whole thread ( about paladins ), but it doesnt help now

I'm not worried about the ability to detect the presence of evil in itself, so long as it doesn't dumb down down the RP to "me vs you." But some players will abuse it. If anyone thinks that's never going to happen I don't even know what to say. If this is brought into the game it's only a matter of time until it's abused, because that's just how mature the player base is. When anyone can jump in and begin to play unfiltered we can't expect otherwise. I am for the record not saying that's a bad thing, but let's not pretend everyone will be very mature about the use of this.

The important thing is: when that happens will there be any IC consequences to the paladin gone murder hobo, or will life go on? If this isn't moderated in any way under any circumstances, and if the potential use of it in RP isn't made very clear, then I'm afraid it will just be one more case where when it comes up IC drama will turn into OOC drama, because as usual players will be role-playing different, conflicting realities.

What you describe above, is the case with every unique ability, every class every skill that is available in game by both Good and Evil. Summoning angels/balors/undead, playing paladins/Blackguards, casting epic spells etc etc etc all have consequences, sometimes metagame, sometimes not everyone is very mature about the use of those abilities.

But detect evil is where the line is drawn

[Pimple]

Very interestingly, NOW generalizations are no good. It was happening through the course of this whole thread, but it doesnt help now

No, I think the same of the rest of the thread, but your generalizations were - I think intentionally - cartoony, and most recent. It's kind of beside the point though, so if you want to talk about that, maybe we can take it to private messages?

But detect evil is where the line is drawn

No, I think it's just as bad with so many other things, and I find it disappointing that a lot of things aren't ruled on. But since this topic is about detect evil...

[mrm3ntalist]

Very interestingly, NOW generalizations are no good. It was happening through the course of this whole thread, but it doesnt help now

No, I think the same of the rest of the thread, but your generalizations were - I think intentionally - cartoony, and most recent. It's kind of beside the point though, so if you want to talk about that, maybe we can take it to private messages?

The moment you chose to post about generalizations and characterize something as cartoony, just when the other side was heard, while it has been happening all along ( since page 1 ), is - intentionally or not - trying to dismiss the fact that no matter good or evil, shit happens. Detect evil is not the problem, paladins are not the problem.

But detect evil is where the line is drawn

No, I think it's just as bad with so many other things, and I find it disappointing that a lot of things aren't ruled on. But since this topic is about detect evil...

That post says everything. Detect Evil is not available for all the wrong reasons. Plain and simple. Like you said it is as bad or good with so many other abilities, metagame happens from every side no matter good or evil. Lets think about that.

[Pimple]

The moment you chose to post about generalizations and characterize something as cartoony, just when the other side was heard, while it has been happening all along ( since page 1 ), is - intentionally or not - trying to dismiss the fact that no matter good or evil, (#2) happens. Detect evil is not the problem, paladins are not the problem.

I don't mean to dismiss that, in fact I agree. Since you bring it up again, I will still say that generalizations - yours too - are utter BS. I'm just bringing up what I think will be the problem. It's also the problem for other things. So how about instead of dismissing this problem because we already live in a pigsty, we don't keep doing the same thing and instead try improve on things? :/

That post says everything. Detect Evil is not available for all the wrong reasons. Plain and simple. Like you said it is as bad or good with so many other abilities, metagame happens from every side no matter good or evil. Lets think about that.

And like I said... "I'm not worried about the ability to detect the presence of evil in itself, so long as it doesn't dumb down the RP to 'me vs you'."

I'm just worried that it will and people will at worst get away with using it for PvP mongering without much RP and in the best case be a lot of complaints DMs have to deal with or categorically refuse doing anything about. Same old. Call it wishful thinking but I think we could do better.

I don't have a problem with the ability itself, at least not as metaquad described it. If it's made very clear what you can do with the ability in RP I don't see a problem. But be just a little bit vague about this one and it'll suck.

To summarize very clearly, and repeat, I'm saying that Detect Evil could be good. But if it's done the way everything else is here it won't be.

[chad878262]

If something such as this were to be implemented it would require a developer/scripter willing to do the work and would also go through Quality Control. There's nothing wrong with it being discussed in the meantime so that ideas such as Metaquad's (which I personally think is a really great start) can be voiced. What would help the discussion most though is if there are any other (new) posters that haven't spoken up, for or against.

We can all go back and forth about making generalizations (and I could also add in making assumptions), but how is it furthering the topic of discussion? End of the day it is always the intent of any change to bring balanced new content to the server that enriches or rewards RP, not detracts from it. If Detect Evil as a Paladin ability or priest spell is ever determined to be desirable by the DM staff, dev team has someone that wants to work on it or otherwise it becomes prioritized it would be handled in the same manner.

[Face]

Deus Vult.